Laptop purchasing decision

[hohummelody]

Hello all,

First time poster and member following a warm recommendation of this BBS.
I'm looking into buying a laptop as I'm moving abroad the following years for studies. Now since I live in Israel and am moving to the UK, I have rather limited options locally and I now have a chance to bring a MacBook from the states.
So, I've come down to a toss-up between the MacBook mentioned and a Dell Inspiron 1525 - I'll be getting either with similar specs and be using the Laptop as my sole DAW, as well as my only available computer for studies (which will be music technology and performance) and everything else.
I'm looking to use the Laptop with a PreSonus Firebox, an E-Mu xBoard 49 and a Firewire 7200rpm Hard Drive (probably WD).
My question basically is, which one am I better off with? I've been working on a PC with Cubase which means I don't have to switch to Logic and a new working area with the Mac (I'll stick with Cubase) and the price difference (including 3-year warranty) isn't to steep since Israel is expensive and I'll be getting the Mac from the US.
Please help me out
whadya say?

hohum

 

[hohummelody]

Hi Again,

Just bumped into another issue which is bothering me - the Agere/Lucent Firewire chipsets in the new Macbooks. Seems like the Firebox just won't work with them, as well as quite a few other interfaces. Should I regard this as the death clench on my Mac dreams? I'm partial towards the Macbook but I can't afford to buy it and find out it isn't compatible with any Audio interface I buy.
Please, some insight on this specific as well.

Thank you.

Hohum

 

[dgatwood]

Just bumped into another issue which is bothering me - the Agere/Lucent Firewire chipsets in the new Macbooks. Seems like the Firebox just won't work with them, as well as quite a few other interfaces.

That's not correct. There's a whole lot of bullshit on the Internet being spewed by people who think their problems are caused by the Agere chipset. 99.9% of the time, they're wrong, but because the computers have that chipset in them, they assume that correlation = causation and blame the chipset. Most of the problems are caused either by Leopard bugs, by manufacturers whose drivers don't support Leopard yet, or some other completely unrelated problem.

RME hardware malfunctions with the Agere chipset. I've been unable to find any confirmed report of any other hardware failing due the chipset. The Firebox definitely does not fail with the Agere chipset. I've seen quite a number of people posting saying that those work just fine with the new chipset.

That said, the Firebox violates the FireWire spec and won't power up when attached to any current Macs unless you use the external power supply. It's a well known design flaw in the Firebox. To solve this problem, just use the external power supply.

 

[pezking]

Are you going to be studying at a university over here?

If so, you can purchase the macbook (from about £600) through the higher education purchase programme. That's what I did.

Not sure about having issues with the firewire chipset to be honest. Haven't got myself a firewire interface yet, but will probably go with the M-Audio Profire 2424 when ProTools is Leopard compatible.

 

[jonathangeiger]

did a bit of research about the firewire problems with the macbooks. seems to be true. and as it's so recent, there doesn't seem to be any workaround.

Be aware that the last few versions of logic (including the latest) do not have vst support. You'd have to purchase a vst to au wrapper that, as far as i am aware, works for most vst plugins, but not all.

otherwise, i don't believe there's a huge difference in using a mac or pc for audio production (video production is a different story). the application support is largely the same, and the driver support depends on what company you go with for your interface. generally, osx and xp are equally speedy.

stay away from vista unless you've tried it before. I have a dell laptop, 1.8ghz core2 duo, 2gigs of ram, and vista on it just felt a bit sluggish. i switched to xp.

so, in the end, and this is mainly because you're familiar with windows, and i'm assuming it works well for you, and because the macbook's firewire chipset does not support many audio interfaces, i'd go for the dell laptop.

good luck!

 

[hohummelody]

Thanks for chipping in everybody, I'm really at a loss here as to what to do although my inclination is slowly drifting towards the Dell.

Dgatwood, I completely understand what you're saying regarding internet fueled rumors but it seems as though it's possible to find actual statements from Presonus on the subject. I know that it isn't 100% confirmed that these issues are caused by the new chipset but the number of people reporting problems is a little intimidating.

Pezking, thanks for the advice. I'll be studying at LIPA, so I think that counts as a recognized institution but I'm not completely certain. However, prices will still be cheaper if I purchase the macbook in the US, even with the student discount. That GBP's a real heavy weight

Jonathan, thanks for the advice. Don't you experience any slowdown with your PC as time goes by, I know I have with my PC's since forever - they gradually wear down. Could be I'm just not keeping them clean enough though. Do you use two separate boots of windows for your Dell? Or do you use a separate PC for Internet, MP3 playback, etc.?

Regarding the Firebox's compliance with the FW protocol, is there any other interface that you guys would recommend in the FB's price range? From what I've read it seems to be very highly regarded throughout, albeit having a few flaws.

Again, thanks!

hohum

 

[dgatwood]

Dgatwood, I completely understand what you're saying regarding internet fueled rumors but it seems as though it's possible to find actual statements from Presonus on the subject. I know that it isn't 100% confirmed that these issues are caused by the new chipset but the number of people reporting problems is a little intimidating.

I've actively scoured the internet several times for any actual reports by users and almost every report I find has been hearsay.

Here's what I've been able to determine so far based on actual user testimony (ignoring hearsay of "I heard that [insert product here] doesn't work"):

RME:
all products work, but only if you plug the device into a FireWire hub or hard drive and plug that hub/drive into the Mac.

Presonus:
FIREPOD: works
Firebox: works
FireStudio/FireStudio Project: doesn't work reliably on Leopard, regardless of hardware. DICE hardware is fundamentally defective by design, IMHO.

Apogee:
Ensemble: works
Duet: works

M-Audio:
all products work

MOTU:
all products work

Mackie:
several products known to work, no reports of failures

Focusrite:
all products work


So pretty much every major manufacturer out there except RME has been confirmed to work by numerous users of these machines on the Apple discussion boards. Based on that, I'd hardly say that "the macbook's firewire chipset does not support many audio interfaces". In reality, the opposite is true.

If you can point me to real reports of non-RME hardware failing, I''ll try to get the details and file bugs. Otherwise, I will continue to emphasize that as far as I've been able to determine, only RME's hardware has trouble working with the Agere-based Macs, which strongly suggests a bug in the RME hardware or firmware. I'm not saying Apple shouldn't try to work around it, but I'm not convinced for a minute that the problem is Apple's fault.

Either way, this issue is so breathtakingly overblown that it's almost laughable, particularly since you can fix it just by adding a FireWire hub.... It certainly isn't a big enough problem hat it should reasonably affect anyone's purchasing decision, the hype notwithstanding. That said, if you buy the Mac and you find that it is not compatible, contact Apple within the first week or so after buying it and return it as DOA for a full refund. This simply shouldn't be a problem that you should have to worry about.

Regarding the Firebox's compliance with the FW protocol, is there any other interface that you guys would recommend in the FB's price range? From what I've read it seems to be very highly regarded throughout, albeit having a few flaws.

Don't misunderstand me. The Presonus gear is, AFAIK, protocol compliant. It not not electrically compliant with the current version of the specification. The problem is that the Firebox uses the FireWire connection to power itself; that aspect of the Firebox does not work with newer Macs; you have to use the wall wart power supply. (This would also be true for almost all PC laptops, too, since those usually have 4-pin FireWire, so this shouldn't be a decision-altering issue, either.)

 

[hohummelody]

OK, I stand corrected.
The Dell laptop I'm looking into is definitely not gonna power up the Firebox so that isn't an issue indeed.
I also understand what you're saying about the Mac rumor having no real tangible evidence and the return policy would've been relevant if I could only test it where I'm purchasing it. But, the fact of the matter is that if I purchase a Mac I'll have somebody bring it over from the states and leaving me no choice but to stick with it. So even if I'm the first one to actually prove the problem with the new FW chipsets, it won't do me much good as I won't be able to return it at all...
I just wish I could be completely and utterly sure that the problem is non-existent. Even if there's only a remote chance for this kind of failure, it's a risk I guess I just can't take. Which is a damn shame since Macs are so god damn inspirational!
While I'm here, I'll shoot the interface question again - any outstanding pros or cons for the Firebox as opposed to the Focusrite (Saffire) ,TC Electronics (Konnekt 6/8) or Echo (Audiofire2) systems?
Decisions are rough... especially when they involve actual money.

Thanks,

hohum

 

[pipelineaudio]

I'd be waiting for ADK or Studiocat's view on the subject. They seemed to take a dimmer view of the argere chipset, as well as the ricoh you might find on some dells

Put it this way: Firewire is a SKETCHY business and fraught with problems.

When it all works right, its great, and convenient.

The vast majority of pages out there about firewire and proaudio show that getting it to work right is tricky indeed

 

[dgatwood]

OK, I stand corrected.
I just wish I could be completely and utterly sure that the problem is non-existent. Even if there's only a remote chance for this kind of failure, it's a risk I guess I just can't take. Which is a damn shame since Macs are so god damn inspirational!

My personal Macbook is one of the Agere-based models, and I've had zero problems with its FireWire thus far. I would be frankly amazed if you had problems with it unless you buy an RME interface. That said, I'll spend some time tonight experimenting with it using a broader range of devices and see if I run in to any surprises. I currently own gear by M-Audio and MOTU, so that should be a pretty representative sample.

The fundamental problem is that RME uses FPGAs (field-programmable gate arrays) for their FireWire hardware instead of using actual FireWire silicon. On the plus side, this gives them nearly infinite control over their FireWire implementation. On the minus side, they... well... have nearly infinite control over their FireWire implementation....

In any case, I have yet to find anyone who wasn't able to solve the problem by plugging the RME device into a hard drive or other hub and plugging that into the computer, so if a $25 FireWire hub is the only thing standing between you and buying a Mac, let me know if you have problems and I'll mail you a hub....

 

[dgatwood]

I'd be waiting for ADK or Studiocat's view on the subject. They seemed to take a dimmer view of the argere chipset, as well as the ricoh you might find on some dells

The Ricoh chipset is dodgy. The Agere chipset, AFAIK, is just a size-reduced version of the Lucent chipset that Apple has used off and on for more than a decade.

 

[hohummelody]

Let me know how the experiment works out! I'm kind of hanging by my nails already as to what I'm gonna purchase eventually. If it all goes well I just might go for the Macbook after all...

 

[pipelineaudio]

Since the intelmacs apple has also used TI on and off. From tech support people of different soundcard brands, you will hear the TI chipped intelmacs seemed ok while the argere were the ones reporting issues.

This isnt just an RME thing, in fact if ANY driver should be expected to work across a range of sketchy chipsets (even the terrifyingly poor dell onboard 4 pin) it would be RME

 

[dgatwood]

Since the intelmacs apple has also used TI on and off. From tech support people of different soundcard brands, you will hear the TI chipped intelmacs seemed ok while the argere were the ones reporting issues.

What tech support people see reflects a very extreme selection bias and is therefore a nearly useless metric to use as an indicator of compatibility. The two most popular Mac models both use this chipset. Most problems with audio hardware happen when you first get either the audio hardware or the computer. Thus, basic statistics tells us that the vast majority of problem reports on the Mac platform should come from Agere-based Macs.... If that were not the case, it would be surprising.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The vast majority of *firewire* related problems I am hearing about ARE from the argere based macs and seem to go away when the user gets a TI based one

Firewire is such a sketchy issue anyway that why would you even want to CHANCE a known issue that might possibly work well in some cases. This is one of those instances where just getting the TI chip in the first place rules out a giant variable.

 

[dgatwood]

The vast majority of *firewire* related problems I am hearing about ARE from the argere based macs and seem to go away when the user gets a TI based one

What interfaces? Tiger or Leopard?

 

[pipelineaudio]

presonus, but then again that is some iffy stuff...anything dice 2, motu and rme...other brands I usually deal with are so long associated with PC's that I dont hear much mac from them.

I only pay much attention to OSX 10.4.xxx and newer and windows, but the macbooks running xp with the argere chips have the same sort of issues, which I dont hear about on the TI's

 

[boingoman]

There are plenty of real reasons to not buy a macbook, forget about firewire.

 

[pezking]

There are plenty of real reasons to not buy a macbook, forget about firewire.

Let's not turn this into another Mac vs PC thread, that's being discussed to death elsewhere.

Personally I have had absolutely no problems with my Macbook, though I have yet to acquire a firewire interface, but will do shortly. The macbook is the most popular laptop within the audio-people I come into contact with through Uni.

I have not heard about anybody having issues with firewire interfaces. I do feel though that there is a lot of bollocks floating around the internet about this that and the other; it feels like it's usually just people blaming an otherwise unknown fault on the chipset. This "fact" is then usually brandished as a reason not to go for a mac(book).

Hell I don't know better, this is just pure speculation on my part, which makes me no better than anyone else - hahah

 

[pipelineaudio]

Let's not turn this into another Mac vs PC thread, that's being discussed to death elsewhere.

Thank you...that would be counterproductive to the extreme

Personally I have had absolutely no problems with my Macbook

The plural of anectdote is anectdotes NOT evidence

though I have yet to acquire a firewire interface

I have yet to acquire a pair of high heeled shoes, but Im going to go on a bbs and state my opinion of wearing them

The macbook is the most popular laptop within the audio-people I come into contact with through Uni.

Argumentum ad populum

I have not heard about anybody having issues with firewire interfaces.

Dicto simpliciter

Don't worry, those who have to deal with this day in and day out have run into plenty of examples

I do feel though that there is a lot of bollocks floating around the internet about this that and the other; it feels like it's usually just people blaming an otherwise unknown fault on the chipset. This "fact" is then usually brandished as a reason not to go for a mac(book).

Two different issues here. Noone is saying "dont go for a macbook". I am only arguing to get a macbook with a TI chipset, which appears what they are going back to.

About blaming an otherwise unknown fault on the chipset, when the chipset is all that you change and it all of a sudden works, you might want to consider that as a cause right?

This is not news, or some secret. Take manufacturers at their word when they insist on a specific chipset. You might want to reword their statement as " You can try this on whatever you'd like, but if you do have problems and you arent using the firewire chipset we specifically reccomended several times in our litterature, product box, website, and forums, you can probably expect no more troubleshooting help from us until you use the reccomended one."

There are soooooooo many variables and issues to deal with here that it's best to avoid known problems if possible