Group Buy Interest?

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Can someone forward Chance's latest mass-email to me?

I've been off the board and noticed that you're only included in mass emails now if registered; I registered 5 minutes ago and think I missed the latest email. Thanks!
 
nuemes said:
I've been off the board and noticed that you're only included in mass emails now if registered; I registered 5 minutes ago and think I missed the latest email. Thanks!
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It's in the news section at the top of the User Console when you log in
 
Guilt regarding group buy

I see no reason for guilt or feeling preasured by bbs advertisers regarding any group buy.

Consider the nature of a bbs: someone goes to a fair amount of diffuculty to set it up and then hundreds (thousands?) of us spend time replying to people's questions and trading info for free.

With all due respect, this board and its advertisers would not be here if not for those who use the board. If the users of this or any bbs find that a group buy is helpful to their recording goals then the advertisers have no business (ha) being upset.

I find group buys on this board to be a great addition, and frankly I would not spend nearly as much time on this board were they not here.
 
apl said:
Hey, chance, maybe you could start a BBS from your website that's the TCM-TCMP forums.
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Chance suggested this a while back. No one jumped on the band wagon.
I think it's a good idea too. in fact there is a fresh new forum already created if it ever needs to be used. ;)

nuemes said:
With all due respect, this board and its advertisers would not be here if not for those who use the board. If the users of this or any bbs find that a group buy is helpful to their recording goals then the advertisers have no business (ha) being upset.

I find group buys on this board to be a great addition, and frankly I would not spend nearly as much time on this board were they not here.
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I'm with you on that one.
 
nuemes said:
I see no reason for guilt or feeling preasured by bbs advertisers regarding any group buy.

Consider the nature of a bbs: someone goes to a fair amount of diffuculty to set it up and then hundreds (thousands?) of us spend time replying to people's questions and trading info for free.

With all due respect, this board and its advertisers would not be here if not for those who use the board. If the users of this or any bbs find that a group buy is helpful to their recording goals then the advertisers have no business (ha) being upset.

I find group buys on this board to be a great addition, and frankly I would not spend nearly as much time on this board were they not here.
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I agree....watch TV one day....I see many different ads for similar products...the folks with the best products with the best prices get the business....I dont see Little Ceasars getting ready to pull the plug on their $5 pizzas just because its cutting into Pizza Huts sales...
 
If Mic Company X is upset that a group buy is allowing tons of people to get educated about the product and where it comes from, well then that's just tough. Like Chance said at one point: "Make better mics!"

If the cheap-as-dirt mics we're getting here are somehow cutting into a bona-fide business's bottom line, then the problem is that business, not the group buy.

It is not a crime (legal or moral) to educate people about the products they use and to create a scenario where the users can get the product at cost. Besides, no one knows what some of these sound like. It is a gamble. Far more than buying from a company with a warranty and a US phone number.
 
I think the issue is, at least in part, that those vendors often pay (with profits from their sales) to support the existence of audio forums like this one (note the ZZounds Banner above) and GS for example. It becomes very awkward for the folks running the Board if their members are essentially competing with the Board's sponsors. They potentially run the risk of losing their financial sponsors and perhaps even the Board as a result. Saying that the Board wouldn't be here if not for the members is certainly true, but it is also true that all the nonpaying members in the world aren't sufficient to support the ongoing operation of a Board like this.

A delicate issue.
 
pohaku said:
I think the issue is, at least in part, that those vendors often pay (with profits from their sales) to support the existence of audio forums like this one (note the ZZounds Banner above) and GS for example. It becomes very awkward for the folks running the Board if their members are essentially competing with the Board's sponsors.
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It becomes awkward if an author writes a negative review of a product and pisses off an advertiser, too, but I can tell you that if I find out a review has been pulled for that reason, I stop subscribing to the magazine. Advertisers get eyes viewing their ads in exchange for compensation. Period. The second you let advertisers start dictating policy, you're screwed.

Besides, 99% of what ZZounds sells isn't competing with anything in the group buy. Saying that the group buy competes with ZZounds is like saying that putting a Coke machine next door unfairly competes with Wal-Mart....
 
pohaku said:
It becomes very awkward for the folks running the Board if their members are essentially competing with the Board's sponsors.
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But don't we have that even without the GB? We have people here posting from lots of companies: Mercenary, Atlas, Wunder, etc.
 
JTC111 said:
But don't we have that even without the GB? We have people here posting from lots of companies: Mercenary, Atlas, Wunder, etc.
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And we have people selling used goods, which compete against them in pretty much the same way. Worrying about what the advertisers will say is the first step towards fascism.
 
dgatwood said:
Saying that the group buy competes with ZZounds is like saying that putting a Coke machine next door unfairly competes with Wal-Mart....
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Nice!

+1

Also... the scenario where "one of the moderators on another forum and he was concerned about potential group buyers being upset with how long the buy takes"

If someone jumps in and doesn't realize they probably won't get their TnC Gear for 6 months (more or less) ... That's their problem and they should have done more Homework on what the Group Buy entails.
 
dgatwood said:
It becomes awkward if an author writes a negative review of a product and pisses off an advertiser, too, but I can tell you that if I find out a review has been pulled for that reason, I stop subscribing to the magazine. Advertisers get eyes viewing their ads in exchange for compensation. Period. The second you let advertisers start dictating policy, you're screwed.

Besides, 99% of what ZZounds sells isn't competing with anything in the group buy. Saying that the group buy competes with ZZounds is like saying that putting a Coke machine next door unfairly competes with Wal-Mart....
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Lets not lose the forest for the trees here. ZZounds was just an example of a vendor sponsor (that happened to be the banner present when I posted). And perhaps they are large enough not to care. But that might not be the case with smaller sponsoring vendors who deal in microphones and preamps. We aren't talking about gear reviews here, we are talking about a business practice that perhaps has the potential to put a significant dent in certain vendors' business. The sheer scale of this GB (and even the earlier mic GB with over 1000 mics sold) is vastly beyond the simple sale of used gear or the presence of individual gear pimps on this and other Boards. I don't think that your analogies apply well in this case.

Other vendors who are not now directly affected may also be concerned with the possibility that the practice expands to cover other kinds of gear. If a site is dependent on sponsor revenue, it places the operator in a quandry. Would you stop using a site if the operator banned group buy activity from their forums? The operator may be faced with the Hobbesian choice of banning GB discussions and possibly losing members, or permitting them and losing sponsor revenue. Either choice could put the Board out of business. It's a bit of melodramatic overstatement to say that worrying about what the advertisers say is the first step towards facism, but the fact is that what the advertisers say can potentially mean the difference between whether an audio site exists or not.

Keep in mind that this doesn't mean that GB's shouldn't exist. Just that we may want to be more careful about using audio sites supported by vendor revenue as a vehicle for GBs. I'd hate to have this or other forums become inadvertent casualties of our GB activity.
 
I'll curtail my communications about the GB as requested by anyone (especially Chance or Dragon :) ), but when I try and put myself in the place of a retailer, I'm not sure I would consider pulling my advertising -- here's why:

1) let's say I do, and others don't - then all those GAS-rabid potential customers (who are also participating in group buys) don't see my ads, but they do see my competitors' ads. Not the best move.

2) let's say I do, and collude with the other retailers (possibly in violation of antitrust laws, but, maybe not, and that's clearly a subject for another thread), and we all pull our ads. The bbs folds, or kicks off all the GB activity and gets the ads back. Another bbs opens that specializes in only GB activity, and immediately gets really busy. Do I want to advertise there? You bet I do. Remember that if I can get my ad in front of someone who has some money, wants what I'm selling, and is in a buying mood, that's exactly where I want it.

3) I sit back, and realize that all these GB'ers can probably now appreciate why I mark up prices -- when they order from me, they can order whenever they want, they get what they want quickly, they have a big selection, they get individual communication, etc., all the things that retailers do, and that Chance could never be expected to do (and those of us who expect it of him need to relax more :) ). Sure the buyers can take the "direct wholesale" GB route from time to time now, but I know that they'll still be coming back to me, provided I compete well with the other retailers.

I, for one, ordered from online retailers for the first time *after* I participated in the group buy, and have done so frequently since then. The GB keeps me coming back here, and this may be the only website ever where I click banner ads (and I do so because I'm often genuinely interested in what's being sold). Don't get me wrong - I run a site that depends largely on ad revenue, too, and the thought of those getting pulled gives the the chills. I just think what's going on here is good for everybody, including the retailers.
 
I seriously doubt the GB will affect advertisers. For Sale threads in many forums don't cause any problems for them. As well, anybody reading through the GB thread can easily realize the many disadvantages of a GB over traditional retail.

I would not be suprised if the occassional advertiser might try and pressure a forum to shut the thread down, but I think it would be empty words. Bear in mind here, I used to moonlight in telelvision advertising, so I'm approaching this from their perspective. The reality is that no matter what we say, an advertiser pulling their ads, or increasing their ads is goign to be based solely on the METRICS. No matter what we say, they won't pull their ads unless we stop clicking on them. If we talk about GBs but their clicks go up, then they will buy MORE ads. It's really that simple. Advertisers are math people, not emotion people.

Now it's fully possible that their clicks go down and everyone can ponder if that's because of the GB or a million other reasons. But in what I consider the HIGHLY unlikely event that an advertiser pulls ads from forums because of a GB, I consider it more likely a parts maker or parts retailer WILL buy ads in forums. After all, half the people doign the GBs are defaulting to the idea of modding what they get with new capsuls, new trannies, etc. We have to buy those from someone. GB create demand for that stuff. And where there is demand, people will advertise.
 
Here's my three cents (amount adjusted to account for the falling dollar)...

I'm in the process of uping my game a little and there's a bunch of preamps I'd really like to own. I just bought a Demeter VTMP-2C and I'm about to buy an OSA 11 slot 500 rack so I can pick up some of the pres built for that series. That said, neither the Neve 1073 nor any 1073 clone was on the list of pres I wanted. I'm going to pick up a couple in the GB because the price is right but it's not taking my money out of anyone's pocket because I wasn't in the market for a 1073 clone and purchasing the GB pres isn't going to stop me from buying the 500 series pres I want.

On the mic side, I've always wanted to give the ribbon mics a try but I'm nervous about accidentally frying one with phantom power. The only ribbon mic I own is a Blue Woodpecker which requires phantom power so no fear there. I was never going to spend a lot of money on a ribbon mic so this gives me a chance to try that out without the fear of watching two grand go up in smoke with a crack, pop, and sizzle.

As for the tube mics, there are some tube mics on my wish list (the Telefunken M16 MKII is at the top) and even though I'm buying a couple of the 1200 mics to play around with, I'm still going to pick up the M16 at some point in the next year.

The GB pres and tube mics are going to give me a chance to play around with modifications... something I've never done before but have an interest in doing but certainly was not going to do on a pre or mic a thousand dollars and upward.

So in the end, and I know this doesn't apply to every situation for every person participating in this, no company lost out on a sale due to my involvement. And it's perceivable that some company might actually benefit from my involvement. For example, if I really like using the ribbon mics I might buy a couple of better ones to use in the future. Of course I'll probably have to dedicate a preamp to them and put tape over the 48v button.

Anyway, that's my three cents.
 
apl said:
Hey, chance, maybe you could start a BBS from your website that's the TCM-TCMP forums.
Click to expand...

There's a few missing pieces... ;)

ForumPuzzle.gif
 
Will a GB prompt adverse advertiser action? It's an unknown, but I have in the past been a participant in a couple GBs that got shut down because vendors felt threatened. In those cases, though, unlike this one, pressure was put on the manufacturer not to sell to the GB, rather than a Board owner. I'm just acknowleding the possibility that it could happen and that we might want to consider the possible impact of using our audio Boards to support GB activities.
 
I think there's a big difference between using a GB to buy something that a vendor sells under their own name directly from the factory, particularly if it's a design created by that vendor. In a situation where the GB is contracting with a manufacturer to build a unique design, I don't see how a vendor could have a legitimate complaint. There's nothing stopping them from saying 'Preorder the new XYZ mic and get it for $300 below retail!' then ordering when they have enough committed buyers to make it worthwhile. In fact, they might be smart to take that tack.

The preamps are a bit more questionable, I suppose, except that there are about 10 different vendors building clones of these models already, and this GB is using a unique layout, enclosure, etc, not benefiting from another vendor's investment in tooling, etc...

I don't feel bad about it, I think it's basic economics, no one is getting ripped off, and the competition with traditional vendors is pretty tangential. I mean, no returns, no chance to demo the design, a 6 month lead time? I don't think any vendor could have those stipulations and still command a premium price.
 
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