DIY modding: binding question

[MatchBookNotes]

Alright, I don't know about you but i am fan of the super exspensive les pauls and such with the black/white/black/white type binding around most of the guitar, but those beautiful pieces of art cost 700+ which is not on the budget of someone who is going to university so i was wondering, is it possiple to route out side binding and put the b/w/b/w on the guitar ones self, and on a headstock aswell?

Would sanding the edges before routing be the best idea? if this is possible without getting to intensely involved or exspensive(its not hard to find a plunging router that's not exspensive) and would this be a no-no on a flame or quilt top?

 

[solo2racr]

For the hours involved and the equipment needed, you would be better off spending the time at a part time job and just buying what you want.

 

[muttley600]

Alright, I don't know about you but i am fan of the super exspensive les pauls and such with the black/white/black/white type binding around most of the guitar, but those beautiful pieces of art cost 700+ which is not on the budget of someone who is going to university so i was wondering, is it possiple to route out side binding and put the b/w/b/w on the guitar ones self, and on a headstock aswell?

Would sanding the edges before routing be the best idea? if this is possible without getting to intensely involved or exspensive(its not hard to find a plunging router that's not exspensive) and would this be a no-no on a flame or quilt top?

It really isn't as simple as a plunge router and glueing in the binding. It is a very demanding and fine piece of woodworking. Even more so on an instrument that has already been finished.

I'd strongly advise against it, unless you have the required skills and tools. If you have you wouldn't be asking.

 

[surfmaster]

or get an agile al-3000 for $370

http://www.rondomusic.com/al3000prest.html

 

[Fusioninspace]

I routinely do "fine" woodworking, cabinetry work, guitar body mods, etc. and feel very comfortable about really digging into wood products. I have all the tools for just about any job. and my advice to you is.....



DON"T DO IT!!!!! If it's a hack guitar and you just want to try something fun, then go for it. But you will most likely not be happy with the end results on something that has any value.

You're best bet is to just keep to a guitar that plays good. The good looks can come later - and it probably won't play any better anyway.

 

[Light]

Alright, I don't know about you but i am fan of the super exspensive les pauls and such with the black/white/black/white type binding around most of the guitar, but those beautiful pieces of art cost 700+ which is not on the budget of someone who is going to university so i was wondering, is it possiple to route out side binding and put the b/w/b/w on the guitar ones self, and on a headstock aswell?

Is it possible? sure, but a giant amount of work, and there are a lot of problems with doing it after the guitar is finished. Also, if you want to do a good job, you need to take the neck out, which is a very big deal.

Would sanding the edges before routing be the best idea?

No, You use tape to keep the lacquer from chipping, and it doesn't work very well. Also, use a very sharp bit, and go fairly slow, but not too slow.

if this is possible without getting to intensely involved or exspensive(its not hard to find a plunging router that's not exspensive) and would this be a no-no on a flame or quilt top?

No, it isn't really possible without getting intensely involved and/or expensive.

The biggest problem is that you would need to remove the neck to do a good job. And LP's are set neck guitars, so your not just unscrewing it. Les Paul neck resets are a giant PITA. Then you need to make the channel. You CAN do this with a Purfling knife or something like the Schneider Gramil (which should probably be named after the guy in Paracho, Mexico who showed it to Richard Schneider), but that's a very high skill job, and I don't know anyone who actually cuts binding slots that way anymore. In practical terms, for a carved top like an LP, you would need something like LMI's Universal Binding Machine (which, for all they look pretty straight forward, are surprisingly hard to build right; my dad - who is one of the best wood workers I've ever met - built two before he decided it was more economical to just buy the one from LMI).

Now, if you can manage to do all of that without chipping or burning through the finish, you MIGHT be able to get away without doing any touch up, but it's unlikely. Which is a whole other level of involvement.





I guess the short answer is that in my shop, at $80 an hour for guys who have done all this stuff before and could do it much faster than you, it would be a $1,000-1,500 job. Do the math, but there is no way to do an acceptable job that is anything less than extremely time consuming. In other words, you could get a new guitar for less.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

No, You use tape to keep the lacquer from chipping, and it doesn't work very well. Also, use a very sharp bit, and go fairly slow, but not too slow.

You'd also be best off scribing a line with a knife point to avoid breakout of the finish and timber.

The biggest problem is that you would need to remove the neck to do a good job. And LP's are set neck guitars, so your not just unscrewing it. Les Paul neck resets are a giant PITA.

The other major problem with Les Paul guitars or any guitar with a carved or archtop is that the router base os not going to sit right on the top. Thats where the need for hand tools or binding jigs arise.

Then you need to make the channel. You CAN do this with a Purfling knife or something like the Schneider Gramil (which should probably be named after the guy in Paracho, Mexico who showed it to Richard Schneider), but that's a very high skill job, and I don't know anyone who actually cuts binding slots that way anymore.

Those purfling cutters have been around since at least the last 400 years. There are some examples in collections and museums. It kind of pisses me off when people claim adaptations or direct copies as their own. Here is a picture of mine that is now well over 25 years old and made to a pattern that was given me by a violin maker. His was at least as old and exactly the same.

Have you and you dad tried building a version of the Williams binding jig. I built one in less than a day and it works much better than LMI or Stewmac ones I've seen. Especially for contoured tops. It moves freely in all directions and for me the greatest benefit is that it you have full control of the router which is held upright and the work is held firmly in place. You've probably seen them but if you want links to examples and construction details I'll post them. I haven't used anything else for a few years since building mine.

 

[MatchBookNotes]

thank you for the response, light.
though i don't really want to create something perfect and acceptably beautiful, I want to make something unique(think ol black and evh's guitar), something mine, something that hasn't been totally done a million times but still familiar like a les paul or a tele but not all the way. I don't want a perfect glossy finish, i just want a detail that will add to my mad vision, i want something that is playable but visually lovable, at least to me.

again thank you guys, you're always helpful to this putterer.

 

[muttley600]

If you want something unique you'll find the skills involved in doing some inlay somewhere on the body easier to master than a decent binding job. Inlay isn't a walk in the park either but less demanding than the binding job your considering.

With all these things careful preparation and practice as well as a good few jobs under your belt is the key to getting it right.

 

[Light]

Have you and you dad tried building a version of the Williams binding jig. I built one in less than a day and it works much better than LMI or Stewmac ones I've seen. Especially for contoured tops. It moves freely in all directions and for me the greatest benefit is that it you have full control of the router which is held upright and the work is held firmly in place. You've probably seen them but if you want links to examples and construction details I'll post them. I haven't used anything else for a few years since building mine.

We've seen them, but as I don't do much binding (I'm building electrics, and seldom bind them), I don't worry too much about it anymore. I'm guessing the reason dad hasn't tried one of those is that Jim Olson showed us his version. In typical Jim fashion (this is a guy who showed Bob Taylor a book of the things Jim had done with his CNC machine, and made Bob go, "You've done more with that thing than my team of 20 guys!"), his is so absurdly over the top perfect that it makes you feel a little inadequate.

Above and beyond the arm that holds it all, he also made aluminum base plates for his routers that allow him to use spiral bits, so the base acts kind of like a bearing guide on the router (instead of a bearing bit), but unlike the normal router attachments, it gives about 240 degrees of rotation.

Jim's shop is a lot of fun to visit, but it sure makes you feel like you don't work hard enough.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

Thats crazy, My dentist hasn't got an angle poise that good.

The one I built was based on Don's with a few mods that Bill Moll came up with. He used to do his by hand with just a doughnut base on the router, braver than me. I'd sooner do them by hand.

I can't imagine I'd need anything bigger or better, but each to his own. Besides you have no idea the trouble I have getting spiral cut router bits here, you just can't get them. I have to special order or get them made.

I've never been to Jim Olsen's workshop, I've chatted briefly a few times. I'd love to visit but I'm rarely over there these days as I don't do the shows anymore, I will get back to Healdsburg one day soon though. There is nothing better than seeing solutions other people come up with especially guys like that, FF is another wonder for thinking out of the box solutions.

 

[Light]

Thats crazy, My dentist hasn't got an angle poise that good.

Just the arm cost him something like $2,500. But when your guitars start at $12,500.00, I guess you can afford things like that.

Of course, you have to remember something about Jim. This is a guy who buys a new router (and bit, of course) every time he sets up for a job. He sets up the router once (taking enough time to make sure it is 100% perfect), and then leaves it that way forever, so he never has to go through the set up again. He has taken the idea of the one-man production line to the furthest extreme I can even begin to imagine. His shop is unreal.

O.K., so here is one of my favorite ones. He no longer binds pegheads - he routs (with his CNC) purfling channels in the peghead overlay, and just inlays it. Very much like the purfling lines on the top of a violin. Of course, these slots are exactly the same each time, so instead of figuring out the miters on the purfling each time, he made a set of jigs. They're these aluminum blocks with channels cut in them. You put the purfling in the slot, and just put your chisel up against the edge of the jig and cut. Perfect miters, every time.

Then there is his vacuum hold down jig for cutting linings.

He was having problems with air leaking through the curfs, so he cut individual slots for each block in the lining. It's so over the top, you just sit there with your mouth hanging open going - OH MY GOD (but do it quietly, Jim is very religious).



Here's a picture of one of the bases for his binding cutter.

I've never been to Jim Olsen's workshop, I've chatted briefly a few times. I'd love to visit but I'm rarely over there these days as I don't do the shows anymore, I will get back to Healdsburg one day soon though. There is nothing better than seeing solutions other people come up with especially guys like that, FF is another wonder for thinking out of the box solutions.

Have you seen Frank's new tool through LMI? Jack the Gripper? It's designed to hold 1/4 inch jacks while you tighten the nut from the outside. It's so damn slick, and probably saves at least half the time for a lot of jobs those quick, not even worth charging people for jobs.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

All sounds a bit overkill for me, but as we know it's what ever gets you there in the end. I know guys who are jig junkies and others who build em as and when then trash em. I fall somewhere in the middle. I build jigs to last but I'm always fiddling with them, just this afternoon I've been modding my dovetail jig. One thing for certain he does build nice instruments..

I wouldn't have a use for the lining jig all mine are solid and bent either on an bending iron or off the fox bender. Just the way I've always done it. I do leave a router setup for each job though and have my favorite Elu's for hand work. I'm hunting for some of them on ebay at the moment. I love them and you can't get them any more since they were bought out by Dewalt.