The Jump to Firewire from PCI...is it scary?

[superspit]

Hi people,
those who know me know that I've had some good sounding results using my 3 Delta 44's** (I've owned ever since they hit the market!!).**<of which I've been very happy with>...and Echo Gina 24 (used for seperate drum set playback).

I also intend to keep my current Adobe Audition 1.5 software...variants of which have been my friends for many years....and many to come, I hope...(I hate change!!)

As part of my 'major' studio upgrade (computers, monitors (video and audio),mics etc..), I am going to study this 'firewire' system that many have suggested I convert/get into;.......ok...they do seem to be rather good, and appear to have come along way since Apple introduced the firewire concept back in the day.!!!...

So I am here asking you, the home recordist, to consider the list I have prepared and keep in mind that these units are a mixture of new and s/h products that seemed to catch my eye for one reason or another.

-Presonus Firestudio Firewire Audio Interface 24 bit/ 96k
-AudioFire8
-MOTU 828mk2 firewire interface
-MOTU 896 Firewire Audio Interface, 8 Pres, 18 i/o (second hand for around $1400)
-MOTU 8pre FireWire audio interface
-MACKIE ONYX 400F Firewire 400 Audio Interface (+/- $1200)

The 2 listed atop are units that I particularly like the price of (+/-$800AUS),
and are brand new units.
I need a 'true' 8 in 8 out, 'analog style' system that will interface with my desk easily, via balanced 1/4" cables.
I also believe, and this is the most important thing here, they run ok under WDM...I have no interest in going to ASIO..(please, let's just leave it at that, thankyou).
The other units I would have to get via ebay or s/h dealer, if I was lucky to find them. ($$$)

May I give you my current setup details.....?

24/48 channel desk (mx-8000A)...I will always use a desk for recording/monitoring/mixing.
Intel Pendulum Dual Core E4500 (2.2Ghz) with P35/ICH9 chipset on a Gigabyte DS3L mobo with 1 gig ram.
I am lucky enough to own a TI chipset 1394 PCI Firewire card; I'm guessing and hoping this will interface with the above units (?)

I guess I just want flawless, error free, nicely sync'd tracking...which I get 90 percent of the time with my current cards.

I would also like to keep my Gina with my potential Firewire system; that's beautiful for reproducing my drumkit.

I hope to make a decision pretty soon, and will enjoy clarifying anything written here that needs it......

er, um...over to you.....and thankyou.
Cheers,
Spit.

(oh, for those of you that are familiar with my mobo, it only has 3 PCI slots, so I'm currently using 2 Delta's and my Gina24, which occassionally 'trip over' eachother and glitch!!)

 

[Codmate]

Based on my experience with the MOTU Ultralite - I would go with the 8pre.
Sound-wise it beats the Delta series (I had a 66 + OmniStudio) by a long way IMO.

It wasn't scary at all going PCI -> Firewire.
I've got an Alcatel/Lucent Firewire chipset on my mobo, so I was good to go.
Texas instruments also make decent Firewire interfaces.

Whipped out my PCI card and put the OmniStudio/MIDISport on the shelf.
Uninstalled all M-Audio drivers.
Installed MOTU drivers (which staled until I disabled my Logitech Setpoint software).
Plugged in the MOTU.
Upgraded it's firmware.
Jaw dropped at difference in sound quality.
Desire to buy new mics and monitors increases

My only cavet is that you may miss the M-Audio monitor mixer.
With MOTU, you can't contrtol the overall output level of the computer from a mixer application. You control levels in individual apps and from the knob on the front of the MOTU unit.

Personally I don't miss the mixer app any more at all.

I would also suggest keeping your projects to a standard sample rate, as whenever the sample rate changes (and you're using ASIO), you have to go into the MOTU control panel to change the rate manually (unless you're using digital performer, I've been told).

 

[superspit]

Based on my experience with the MOTU Ultralite - I would go with the 8pre.
Sound-wise it beats the Delta series (I had a 66 + OmniStudio) by a long way IMO.

It wasn't scary at all going PCI -> Firewire.
I've got an Alcatel/Lucent Firewire chipset on my mobo, so I was good to go.
Texas instruments also make decent Firewire interfaces.

Whipped out my PCI card and put the OmniStudio/MIDISport on the shelf.
Uninstalled all M-Audio drivers.
Installed MOTU drivers (which staled until I disabled my Logitech Setpoint software).
Plugged in the MOTU.
Upgraded it's firmware.
Jaw dropped at difference in sound quality.
Desire to buy new mics and monitors increases

My only cavet is that you may miss the M-Audio monitor mixer.
With MOTU, you can't contrtol the overall output level of the computer from a mixer application. You control levels in individual apps and from the knob on the front of the MOTU unit.

Personally I don't miss the mixer app any more at all.

I would also suggest keeping your projects to a standard sample rate, as whenever the sample rate changes (and you're using ASIO), you have to go into the MOTU control panel to change the rate manually (unless you're using digital performer, I've been told).

wow...thankyou for that response mate...and related to your words!...really appreciated your pearls.
Man, there was one thing I should've mentioned, and I will go back and edit the fact that I use Adobe Audition 1.5.....
do you, or anyone else(?) foresee any issues with that?...I don't use ASIO, just WDM. (like to keep it that way).
I also only record at 44.1/24 bit.

Thanx again for your opinion, I really appreciate them at this time!
Cheers,
Spit.

 

[Bulls Hit]

I never regretted the move from a 44 to a Firepod. However the new units from Presonus seem to cause problems arising from the new Dice II chipsets.

In your case I would opt for the 828 MKII in preference to the 8 pre. The 8 pre only has 2 analog outs, which could severely cramp your style if you're used to the plethora of outs provided by the 44s. You've already got a big desk so I'm guessing you don't need the extra preamps

 

[Carter]

I never regretted the move from a 44 to a Firepod. However the new units from Presonus seem to cause problems arising from the new Dice II chipsets.

Wow, there are not any problems both of my Firestudio's, may I ask........... na forget it

 

[Hard2Hear]

Carter is the one guy who has had Firestudios actually working from the get-go.

Hey Carter, if you want to see examples of how they DON'T work, feel free to come by our shop in Alexandria. I'll show you a Sonar rig with a Firestudio and how buggy it really is. We also have other DICEII testing devices which show the typical issues.

BUT I have to say, the DICEII thing is now mostly with certian software like Sonar. It seems pretty good with Cubase or Reaper. In the beginning, there were all kinds of problems, but I think they have mostly ironed those out.

 

[Carter]

Carter is the one guy who has had Firestudios actually working from the get-go.

Hey Carter, if you want to see examples of how they DON'T work, feel free to come by our shop in Alexandria. I'll show you a Sonar rig with a Firestudio and how buggy it really is. We also have other DICEII testing devices which show the typical issues.

BUT I have to say, the DICEII thing is now mostly with certian software like Sonar. It seems pretty good with Cubase or Reaper. In the beginning, there were all kinds of problems, but I think they have mostly ironed those out.

I would like to bring my rig down to show you how well it works for me, you are not that far away, I have only used these devices with Cubase SL & SX I just dont see the problem that everyone is complaining about.

Presonus has always stated that the Firestudios dont work well with Sonar so what is the point there? Like everyone says, "Dont buy HARDWARE that does not support your software. Nuff Said! and not to be funny but south Cincy???? dude you are more than 20 miles into NORTHERN Kentucky (away from Cincinnati Ohio).....Think you should change that!

 

[Hard2Hear]

Thats where I work, I live closer to town. But we all know South Cincy is the RIVER! I actually grew up an east-sider. Its all the same to me now.

 

[gvdv]

Hi,
I, too, am having difficulty deciding on which Firewire audio interface to buy

In terms of some of the units you mention, I'm down to trying to decide between the Motu 828 MKII or the Presonus Firestudio. I was going to buy the RME Fireface 800, but have decided that I cannot afford this at the moment.

It seems to me that there are advantages and disadvantages to each of these two units.

For example,
The Motu has 2 mic. preamps/instrument inputs (XLR/TRS combo), and 8 balanced/unbalanced TRS

The Presonus has 2 instrument inputs, 8 line inputs ,and EIGHT microphone preamps. On the other hand, the Presonus appears to have one, dedicated input/output that shares S/PDIF and MIDI duties, while the Motu handles these with separate sets of inputs and outputs.

Another issue which is relevant, and which I was reading about on the forums on Presonus's homepage, is that Presonus hasn't apparently updated its drivers for many, many months. And now they even have a new product out, called the Studio Tube which users on the Presonus forums are complaining about because it uses the 'old' drivers.

There has been much consternation on those forums over Presonus's lack of responsiveness in producing a new driver. I even saw a Beta driver on one site.

Motu's drivers are supposed to be rock solid with Mac and very good with PC's, pace what people say above about Presonus always having acknowledged that there are problems getting the firepod working with Sonar.

As somebody above also said, the Motu 8 pre seems to be lacking in the number of outputs that are available.

GVDV

 

[pipelineaudio]

Its not just that the Firestudio drivers are pretty bad, or that their minimum latency is extremely high. The company pulled some rather questionable moves regarding the Firestudio, and some funnier stuff with the firebox. The degree of disconnect between common sense, or an idea about how the end users might use their products is, as a whole, quite lacking there. Though there are some smart individuals working at the company.

I've been biting my tongue about these guys for a while, but I couldn't possibly reccomend a firestudio to anyone at this point, though I'm glad a few people are getting on ok with them.

I still LOVE my centralstation

 

[superspit]

Guy's, this has been fantastic, with all your responses and all....everyone here seems to have a very mature opinion about there shit...good to see.
I have further been studying the choices of firewire audio, and I decided yesterday that I won't purchase the Presonus....I might just go all out and look more deeply into the Motu 896, second hand ofcourse. (faaarking $$$$)
I only appear to find vey positive comments about these and their other devices, albeit expensive....now to see if they'll work cleanly with my AdobeAudition 1.5 and connect nicely with my mixing desk.

oh yeah.....I checked out Echo's 8 firewire system (audiofire8)....this looks very nice, but I haven't 'heard' a lot of people talk good or bad about them.(?)
Thanx again guys.

 

[gvdv]

Its not just that the Firestudio drivers are pretty bad, or that their minimum latency is extremely high. The company pulled some rather questionable moves regarding the Firestudio, and some funnier stuff with the firebox. The degree of disconnect between common sense, or an idea about how the end users might use their products is, as a whole, quite lacking there. Though there are some smart individuals working at the company.

I've been biting my tongue about these guys for a while, but I couldn't possibly reccomend a firestudio to anyone at this point, though I'm glad a few people are getting on ok with them.

I still LOVE my centralstation

Hi pipelineaudio,
I'm sorry to hear that you couldn't possibly recommend a firestudio at this point because I had basically decided to buy one to use with my Mac Pro (NOT Macbook pro, as everyone seems to see/hear when I mention that).

However, I had decided to pay very close attention to information such as that which you provide, and that I had read about elsewhere, so I guess I'm back to square one in terms of looking for a firewire interface which has a minimum of four mic. inputs, and a fair amount of instrument/line inputs and outputs, and MIDI. Perhaps I should go for my second choice, the Motu 828 MKII or re-consider the RME Fireface 800, which I had decided was too expensive for me. Actuallly, I think I'll stick with the $700-$1000 price point for the audio interface.

I'm also a bit worried about the fact that my apartment is wired on one or two circuits, and anticipate problems with ground/earth loop hum, but I'll deal with that when I come to it.

 

[pipelineaudio]

IF the Firestudio works for you, and IF the latency is low enough not to bother you, I will stick with what I've said about the Firestudio being the absolute BEST laid out audio interface out there. I couldnt have asked for a better, expandable, feature filled setup than they made with that unit

Its got everything:

1. sensible headphone outs
2. speaker switching
3. spdif
4. MIDI
5. 8 onboard mic pre's
6. 2 DI's
7. Expandable thru ADAT to 24 channels

perfect!

if only it worked better, had reasonable quality control, and lower latency

Every day I am asked at least 10-20 times to reccomend an interface to use with REAPER..its frustrating that I cant automatically give an answer, I am speaking to all the manufacturers I can right now to rectify this situation (if possible)

The RME FF800 is AWESOME, however the layout and ASIO I/O numbering of the four mic pre's can be confusing...if only they had done an 8x24+2 style like the firestudio

The MOTU 8Pre seems to be doing pretty good! Its not as feature packed as it would be nice to be, but if it fits your needs thats a steal of a product.

Im not sure if the safety buffer that plagues so many chips is defeatable, and not sure on the legal ramifications of companies making their own drivers when using the DICE-II chip...if those two things could be adressed, then maybe Presonus can, along with a SERIOUS look at quality control, bring that firestudio up to the position its excellent layout deserves

 

[therage!]

I was scared to death when going to firewire...lots of horror stories. But the Yamaha N12 mixer has worked perfectly and as of right now I'm not aware of anyone having problems with it.

 

[gvdv]

IF the Firestudio works for you, and IF the latency is low enough not to bother you, I will stick with what I've said about the Firestudio being the absolute BEST laid out audio interface out there. I couldnt have asked for a better, expandable, feature filled setup than they made with that unit

Its got everything:

1. sensible headphone outs
2. speaker switching
3. spdif
4. MIDI
5. 8 onboard mic pre's
6. 2 DI's
7. Expandable thru ADAT to 24 channels

perfect!

if only it worked better, had reasonable quality control, and lower latency

Every day I am asked at least 10-20 times to reccomend an interface to use with REAPER..its frustrating that I cant automatically give an answer, I am speaking to all the manufacturers I can right now to rectify this situation (if possible)

The RME FF800 is AWESOME, however the layout and ASIO I/O numbering of the four mic pre's can be confusing...if only they had done an 8x24+2 style like the firestudio

The MOTU 8Pre seems to be doing pretty good! Its not as feature packed as it would be nice to be, but if it fits your needs thats a steal of a product.

Im not sure if the safety buffer that plagues so many chips is defeatable, and not sure on the legal ramifications of companies making their own drivers when using the DICE-II chip...if those two things could be adressed, then maybe Presonus can, along with a SERIOUS look at quality control, bring that firestudio up to the position its excellent layout deserves

Hi pipeline audio and therage,
Thanks for your replies.

I looked at the N12, but had decided against it, maybe I'll give it another look.

Pipeline, how high is the latency with the Firestudio; that's one issue that I can't compromise on.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The minimum possible round trip latency on the unit AFAIK is 11 msec. However that is at 64 sample buffer size, which in drivers as poorly written as these, is not going to be an easy task.

On a few systems (one which regularly streams 50 channels of 2 rme hdsp9652's in and out at 128 samples and the other which does 24 in 2 out at 64 samples), I couldn't manage a reliable 4 in 2 out at 512 samples, at which point the latency was already too high for a lot of peoples' comfort

 

[dgatwood]

...Mac Pro.... ...looking for a firewire interface which has a minimum of four mic. inputs, and a fair amount of instrument/line inputs and outputs, and MIDI. Perhaps I should go for my second choice, the Motu 828 MKII or re-consider the RME Fireface 800, which I had decided was too expensive for me. Actuallly, I think I'll stick with the $700-$1000 price point for the audio interface.

Sounds like what you probably want is the MOTU 896HD....