Gibson/Epiphone lies

[jmorris]

for the less than sharp----

I think that because Gibson's claim that that guitar is made in the USA is an outright lie you have a valid concern.

I think that your bigoted race motivated claims about the "japs" and those evil, lazy Koreans that want to rape our country are not valid and you should be ashamed of yourself.


AND incase this isn't clear. Yes jmorris, this is directed towards you

Why are the Koreans evil and lazy? I never said that.Im offended by that statement for all the good honest hard working Korean people.Please find where I posted that for us please! You have just now offered up your own biased and racist thoughts.

 

[donkeystyle]

Not, made in Korea by horribly cheap labor by people that dont really care about workmanship and would just as soon see all Americans die then rape our country.

not racist or bigoted? Ok, well then we'll call it racially motivated, hateful generalizations

also, I read the term jap or japs at least 5 times in your posts.

I hate when people try to be overly P.C. and I as a half-mexican have no problem with jokes concerning race or enthnicity, but when there's obviously a strong underlying hate behind them I have to draw the line.

 

[muttley600]

The value of my old guitars was not( if you would read it again) to say "look what I own" it was to demonstrate that USA guitars are worth MUCH more than Jap ones if only given the prices they fetch. The Jap guitars are not and I dont believe will ever be more desirable than US ones. J

Not to you maybe but they are to quite a lot of people. As to what USA made guitars vintage or otherwise are worth? please read my previous post. They are worth exactly what people will pay for them. It is no indication of quality.

True some are great. Some Import guitars from the 70's 80's and 90's are also great. Ultimately they are just a tool.

ust look at the prices of Gibsons/Fenders/Martins/Gretch theses days. They are WAY higher than Jap/china/Korea. This is also getting way off point form origional post. If a guitar says "made in the usa' it should be. Made in Japan with it then shipped over to USA to apply the finish does not in any way right true to the made in usa lable.

Yes they are because people will pay those prices, thats fine but it is no measure of quality. I defy you to tell me the last guitar that was "made in the USA"? I'm not being pedantic but as a guitar maker I know where each part was made and whats important to the "made in XXX" label. I make bespoke guitars, can I put made in the UK on them because the machine heads I use are made by Hosco in Japan???

There are good guitars and guitars that are good for other players. Period. You judgment of guitar value has only to do with $$'s.

As to the original post, do you really want to know how much of that cherished guitar with the "made in USA" label actually started life being made in some other place. Just take a look at it and think about it.

 

[muttley600]

i know i would rather have a cnc machine cut my guitar than some guy with a band saw.

Why? what possible difference can it make to you?? If you could ever tell the difference in the first place.

 

[jmorris]

Jap is just for short and that is all.

 

[muttley600]

Just to put a little perspective on this thread. Can someone just tell me what a "made in USA" would be?

 

[jmorris]

Not to you maybe but they are to quite a lot of people. As to what USA made guitars vintage or otherwise are worth? please read my previous post. They are worth exactly what people will pay for them. It is no indication of quality.

True some are great. Some Import guitars from the 70's 80's and 90's are also great. Ultimately they are just a tool.

Yes they are because people will pay those prices, thats fine but it is no measure of quality. I defy you to tell me the last guitar that was "made in the USA"? I'm not being pedantic but as a guitar maker I know where each part was made and whats important to the "made in XXX" label. I make bespoke guitars, can I put made in the UK on them because the machine heads I use are made by Hosco in Japan???

There are good guitars and guitars that are good for other players. Period. You judgment of guitar value has only to do with $$'s.

As to the original post, do you really want to know how much of that cherished guitar with the "made in USA" label actually started life being made in some other place. Just take a look at it and think about it.

The red statements I agree with. Is a les paul worth 300 grand ? No, I have said that before. And I dont place the price on the instruments I own/have owned, the thousands of people do that have bought them and paid that price! do

 

[jmorris]

Just to put a little perspective on this thread. Can someone just tell me what a "made in USA" would be?

It explains itself...Made in the usa, not "built in China, Japan and theN shipped here to USA where we spray a coat of paint on it and lable it made in the USA." The "made in the usa" is placed because it is generaly accepted that it means quality, therefor it will SELL MORE!

 

[jmorris]

Not to you maybe but they are to quite a lot of people. As to what USA made guitars vintage or otherwise are worth? please read my previous post. They are worth exactly what people will pay for them. It is no indication of quality.

True some are great. Some Import guitars from the 70's 80's and 90's are also great. Ultimately they are just a tool.

Yes they are because people will pay those prices, thats fine but it is no measure of quality. I defy you to tell me the last guitar that was "made in the USA"? I'm not being pedantic but as a guitar maker I know where each part was made and whats important to the "made in XXX" label. I make bespoke guitars, can I put made in the UK on them because the machine heads I use are made by Hosco in Japan???

There are good guitars and guitars that are good for other players. Period. You judgment of guitar value has only to do with $$'s.

As to the original post, do you really want to know how much of that cherished guitar with the "made in USA" label actually started life being made in some other place. Just take a look at it and think about it.

Ok, I ve thought about it. Please tell me where my 1960 blonde Gibson ES 330 2 P90 guitar was made?

 

[the_crowing]

Why are the Koreans evil and lazy? I never said that.Im offended by that statement for all the good honest hard working Korean people.Please find where I posted that for us please!

Had you read my post, you could have read an exact quotation of the remark you made in this post

 

[donkeystyle]

It explains itself...Made in the usa, not "built in China, Japan and theN shipped here to USA where we spray a coat of paint on it and lable it made in the USA." The "made in the usa" is placed because it is generaly accepted that it means quality, therefor it will SELL MORE!

I think what muttley is getting at is pretty much everything that goes on the guitars is made outside the usa. In most cases the only thing that is made in the usa is the body and neck which is mostly CNC with assembly and finish work done by hand.

So how much of its components has to be american made for the guitar to be american made?

 

[muttley600]

It explains itself...Made in the usa, not "built in China, Japan and theN shipped here to USA where we spray a coat of paint on it and lable it made in the USA." The "made in the usa" is placed because it is generaly accepted that it means quality, therefor it will SELL MORE!

Well without being too specific about the model or brand. The pickups haven't been wound in the US for a looong time. The tuners and gears have really NEVER been made in the US, German originally and since the 60's and 70's Japan. The truss rods were for a while but not anymore. The tree's with the exception of the Maple have been cut and processed overseas and even most of the maple comes from Canada. The polish and dyes used in finishing have been manufactured and imported from Europe (not in the last three years however). The strings have also been imported for the most part. The fret wire was first imported from Germany and is now from Japan on the better models or Korea on the mass market. The tun-O-crapic bridge and the castings that go on most guitars is sourced or made by Hosco in Japan or one of two companies in Germany or one in Italy.....Need I go on???


The point is that I have built bespoke instruments for years but many of the component parts are from overseas. It is the detail that matters, the selection of materials and craftsmanship that makes the difference. There are many places in the world that are more than capable of producing a first class instrument. Gibson, Fender, Gretsch et al know that thats why they are embracing the foreign market......Don't forget that the biggest instrument maker on the planet is and has been for some time Yamaha..

 

[jmorris]

Had you read my post, you could have read an exact quotation of the remark you made in this post

Here is exactly what I posted

"Not, made in Korea by horribly cheap labor by people that dont really care about workmanship and would just as soon see all Americans die then rape our country."
Now, I never said they are lazy and evil. I stated they dont like us, mostly I believe to propaganda by their government. Now cheap labor...they pay their workers a terrible some of money to perform jobs that pay 20 times that over here. That is the cheap labor part. No, they dont care about quality I dont think. They for the most part have plain survival on their minds so the playability or the choice of woods or the perfection of a neck joint of a guitar is of little importance to them. Many country have hatred for us. N. Korea, China, Iraq, Iran Syria. Am I happy about it? No, Do I hate those people in return.No. I have hatred for their govennment, the way they treat their people. The crap they fill their heads with.
I truely believe people are people, governments can be evil.

 

[jmorris]

Well without being too specific about the model or brand. The pickups haven't been wound in the US for a looong time. The tuners and gears have really NEVER been made in the US, German originally and since the 60's and 70's Japan. The truss rods were for a while but not anymore. The tree's with the exception of the Maple have been cut and processed overseas and even most of the maple comes from Canada. The polish and dyes used in finishing have been manufactured and imported from Europe (not in the last three years however). The strings have also been imported for the most part. The fret wire was first imported from Germany and is now from Japan on the better models or Korea on the mass market. The tun-O-crapic bridge and the castings that go on most guitars is sourced or made by Hosco in Japan or one of two companies in Germany or one in Italy.....Need I go on???


The point is that I have built bespoke instruments for years but many of the component parts are from overseas. It is the detail that matters, the selection of materials and craftsmanship that makes the difference. There are many places in the world that are more than capable of producing a first class instrument. Gibson, Fender, Gretsch et al know that thats why they are embracing the foreign market......Don't forget that the biggest instrument maker on the planet is and has been for some time Yamaha..

????????
Pickup on Gibsons (my cherrised one as it was put ) were wound here in the good old USA. That is a fact. Those are the guitars I am talking about...remember I said my 1960 Gibson ES 330? Overseas parts? Well yes of course some parts would be imported. Brazilian rosewood does not come from Alabama. Some of you points are well taken but there is a far cry from compiling quality parts from around the world to assemble a guitar here in the states, by Americans. Haveing a guitar completly built in Japan then just the sunburst finish applied here doe not mean in my eyes "made in the usa". That to me is fraud...when they place a sticker on it and boost the price up 4 times from the Korean made one.

 

[muttley600]

Here is exactly what I posted

"Not, made in Korea by horribly cheap labor by people that dont really care about workmanship and would just as soon see all Americans die then rape our country."
Now, I never said they are lazy and evil. I stated they dont like us, mostly I believe to propaganda by their government. Now cheap labor...they pay their workers a terrible some of money to perform jobs that pay 20 times that over here. That is the cheap labor part. No, they dont care about quality I dont think. They for the most part have plain survival on their minds so the playability or the choice of woods or the perfection of a neck joint of a guitar is of little importance to them. Many country have hatred for us. N. Korea, China, Iraq, Iran Syria. Am I happy about it? No, Do I hate those people in return.No. I have hatred for their govennment, the way they treat their people. The crap they fill their heads with.
I truely believe people are people, governments can be evil.

Well I've been to a lot of those manufacturing plants and visited the countries you mention as well as the US and you are very very wrong. I don't want to start a flame war on this one but please if your going to make statements like that have something to back it up. The US still make some fantastic instruments, so do the folks in Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam (watch this space). Hell I build some half decent stuff myself but the true measure of appreciation is the same as music itself, it should be eclectic not exclusive.

 

[Zaphod B]

No, they dont care about quality I dont think. They for the most part have plain survival on their minds so the playability or the choice of woods or the perfection of a neck joint of a guitar is of little importance to them.

Guitars manufactured overseas are generally made to a set of specifications by companies outside the country of manufacture. The tolerances, wood, binding, finish, pickups, hardware, etc., are spec'd and the factory builds to those specifications.

Factories in Indochina/Asia/wherever are capable of building to whatever specification is required, be it of high or low quality or something in between. The continued operation of these factories depends on their ability to deliver the product specified by their customers.

The company that imports the guitars is responsible for the quality of the instrument. Most companies that import don't brag about it, but the code phrases are easy enough to see: "Expertly Set Up In Our Shop In California," for example, is a dead giveaway.

Rambling, sorry. Anyhow, back the original complaint: I expect that if any item carries a "Made in [insert country]" label, that the final assembly of the item will have taken place in that country. In the case of guitars, I would assume that to be that the luthery would have taken place in the named country, but that certain components may come from someplace other than the named country of manufacture.

 

[muttley600]

????????
Pickup on Gibsons (my cherrised one as it was put ) were wound here in the good old USA. That is a fact. Those are the guitars I am talking about...remember I said my 1960 Gibson ES 330? Overseas parts? Well yes of course some parts would be imported. Brazilian rosewood does not come from Alabama. Some of you points are well taken but there is a far cry from compiling quality parts from around the world to assemble a guitar here in the states, by Americans. Haveing a guitar completly built in Japan then just the sunburst finish applied here doe not mean in my eyes "made in the usa". That to me is fraud...when they place a sticker on it and boost the price up 4 times from the Korean made one.

You need to get that US is best thing out of your head when you talking about top end guitars at least when the big names are concerned. Yes they command big prices from collectors and the likes of you. The thing the US does best at present is the smaller custom building, the bespoke stuff, the stuff I do here in the UK. The Asian market can NEVER match us on that one, at least not for a while. In any case you are totally missing the point which is, your guitar or guitars are undoubtedly fantastic, they are not entirely US made whatever you may believe, (OK YOUR pickups were..). The US big name players are choosing to go overseas for a reason and if you think it is just on a cost basis you are sadly mistaken. The value of your vintage, collectible guitars will no doubt hold and I'm happy for you, but if you want a guitar as a working tool rather than a wall hanger your options today are better than they ever could have been in 1960. Now you have a choice of good playable instruments from $150's right up to a hand made bespoke axe at 50 times that.

 

[jmorris]

Guitars manufactured overseas are generally made to a set of specifications by companies outside the country of manufacture. The tolerances, wood, binding, finish, pickups, hardware, etc., are spec'd and the factory builds to those specifications.

Factories in Indochina/Asia/wherever are capable of building to whatever specification is required, be it of high or low quality or something in between. The continued operation of these factories depends on their ability to deliver the product specified by their customers.

The company that imports the guitars is responsible for the quality of the instrument. Most companies that import don't brag about it, but the code phrases are easy enough to see: "Expertly Set Up In Our Shop In California," for example, is a dead giveaway.

Rambling, sorry. Anyhow, back the original complaint: I expect that if any item carries a "Made in [insert country]" label, that the final assembly of the item will have taken place in that country. In the case of guitars, I would assume that to be that the luthery would have taken place in the named country, but that certain components may come from someplace other than the named country of manufacture.

Very true but the quality control is what sucks bad!

 

[muttley600]

Very true but the quality control is what sucks bad!

You are wrong again. Sorry but your wrong.

 

[IloveJesus]

A couple weeks ago I played a Mexi-made Telecaster, and it played so well. Perfect. It was about 700 bucks. Then I played an American-made telecaster that was almost twice the price. Played like crap. Now, it could have been the setup, or it could be that I'm a crappy guitar player (which is true), but I know which I would have wanted.

That said, there is only ONE reason companies have their products made overseas or in Mexico: They don't want to pay a living wage.


The people who make those import guitars have a standard of living that makes a trailer park look luxurious. We all know and support this each time we buy Chinese crap.