The most depressing thing

[jjones1700]

I don't know how many 2" machines are truly selling for scrap metal prices...probably none really.

Perhaps it just not worth the investment?

Case in point;

I own a TASCAM MS-16 which is a 1" 16 track recorder with the full nr, remote and roll around cabinet options. It originally retailed for close to $20k Canadian, with all it's options. I bought it back in 1996 for $3500.00 in poor shape. I've spent damn close to another $3K in service on it to get it back to 100% full functionality and original factory spec.

If I put it up for sale today on ebay in its current condition, I'd be lucky to get $2K for it and if it was re-sold in the condition I bought it in, I might get $1K for it. Bottom line here is that putting good money in repairs and maintenance is a worse investment the Enron.

Cheers!

I didn't mean literally as scrap metal. I meant to convey that said machine is worth about the same in studio manager/owner's mind. In other words, they don't think ahead about resale value.

 

[jjones1700]

Yeah, and they blame "analog" in general.



My thoughts exactly. It seems that the very people who could really appreciate this type of machine, the superb craftsmanship etc.. are the ones only day-dreaming about it, either for the lack of funds, space or just finding a good working example of such. It seems the real pricks get to buy a 60K Studer and of course, they also get the chicks and the nice car!

I think my dream machine as far as just pure visual work of art would be a Technics RS-1506 1/4" deck. Damn, those are just beautiful. I don't know if I could actually bring myself to actually use one if I had one. If I won the lottery and had money left over to blow, then I would have a Studer in the house. I may not know how to use it, but damn it I would at least save one from certain doom.

 

[Tim Gillett]

I guess it all comes down to what you are using the tool for.

The good tradesman always looks after his tools of trade because without them he is out of work.

Whereas the collector has an incentive to look after the same item but more as an object of veneration or perhaps long term investment.

Both are valid ways of operating. Just different ways.
Then there are people who operate with a bit of both motives. That's OK too.

I dont see it as anything worth arguing about.

T.

 

[jjones1700]

I guess it all comes down to what you are using the tool for.

The good tradesman always looks after his tools of trade because without them he is out of work.

Whereas the collector has an incentive to look after the same item but more as an object of veneration or perhaps long term investment.

Both are valid ways of operating. Just different ways.
Then there are people who operate with a bit of both motives. That's OK too.

I dont see it as anything worth arguing about.

T.

No arguing, just depressing.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

I didn't mean literally as scrap metal. I meant to convey that said machine is worth about the same in studio manager/owner's mind. In other words, they don't think ahead about resale value.

Well, perhaps they do indeed think ahead?

I mean based on the example I just gave of my own machine, spending money on it purely for the sake of selling it is a poor decision.

If you're fixing up and maintaining the machine to use it yourself, then its worth it...to you and you alone.

Cheers!

 

[jjones1700]

Well, perhaps they do indeed think ahead?

I mean based on the example I just gave of my own machine, spending money on it purely for the sake of selling it is a poor decision.

If you're fixing up and maintaining the machine to use it yourself, then its worth it...to you and you alone.

Cheers!

Yeah, but if they had kept up the proper maintenance on the machine, they wouldn't have got rid of it, right? Or if they did, it would have cost you more. I see both sides and they are logical. It's just sad to see good equipment reach the end of the line. Eventually various parts are going to wear out, regardless of how well maintained a machine is. As time goes on and parts become more scarce, prices go up and at some point a decision has to be made as to whether or not it is viable to keep up with the machine or simply replace it with a new version or technology.

It's just the jerks who buy the things and don't keep them maintained and don't appreciate them that kill me. I understand that it is simply a machine............a tool to get the job done. Like you said about the (now) classic cars. Who knew back then that those vehicles would be of any value to a handful of individuals.

The impending doom of these machines is just sad all the way around.

Okay, I'll quite hijacking the thread.

 

[MCI2424]

Yeah, but if they had kept up the proper maintenance on the machine, they wouldn't have got rid of it, right? Or if they did, it would have cost you more. I see both sides and they are logical. It's just sad to see good equipment reach the end of the line. Eventually various parts are going to wear out, regardless of how well maintained a machine is. As time goes on and parts become more scarce, prices go up and at some point a decision has to be made as to whether or not it is viable to keep up with the machine or simply replace it with a new version or technology.

It's just the jerks who buy the things and don't keep them maintained and don't appreciate them that kill me. I understand that it is simply a machine............a tool to get the job done. Like you said about the (now) classic cars. Who knew back then that those vehicles would be of any value to a handful of individuals.

The impending doom of these machines is just sad all the way around.

Okay, I'll quite hijacking the thread.

The problem is that in business, time is money. Any studio that earns it's living off of recording does keep up with the maintenence. They have no choice. There are no new machines now, so what do they have to do to keep themselves in business?

Tape is expensive and many bands are not willing to pay for it anymore since Pro-Tools is the standard now. The studios HAVE to go to equipment that is current to keep going. The old decks just get to the point where they wear out and are not worth the $$$ to overhaul.

The pro studios have the same love for the analog machines that a cook at McDonalds has for his/her spatula. It is a tool to make money. The technology moves on, it is all digital, and that probably will not change. The pros just have to earn a living and will use whatever tools they need that are compatable with other pro studios. They have no choice.


Lastly, the prices of 2" 24 track decks is still high for a decent deck because they are still largely the most widely used decks in pro studios. All the Tascams etc. are home use items and not in demand for professional studios, so the prices plummet because the home reccer usually has a limited budget.

The emotional content here with analog enthusiests usually clouds good solid logic. This emotional content is not allowed in the business approach. Tools must work, parts/systems must be available and compatable. Analog decks are gone until companies decide there is demand to build them once again.

 

[hungovermorning]

Hey Scott
Did you do those songs on the 22-4 that are on Boones farm?
And did you move out of town?

Yeah, we did absolutely everything live on it (except I think hand claps and an organ overub) including vocals in a day and a half, unfortunately I didn't have a compressor at the time so they leave something to be desired. But yes, it was done on your lovely 22-4. I really like that machine.
Yup, moved to Columbia, MO. The 22-4 now has a lovely finished basement home instead of everything being in my living room!

 

[Cosmic]

...I agree with both Ghost's argument re: the cold hard reality of studio business and also with the notion of feeling that these machines do represent something special and hard-to-come by in the world of home recording.

I have a 24-track Tascam DAW now, but grew up with tape recorders. When the nagging in my head about analog got loud enough, I started looking for a 2-track 1/4-inch machine. I found myself going from Tascams, through Otaris and finally, in a moment of "what-the-hell; go all the way"-ism, I bought a Studer 807, MKII (High speed model with timecode option.)

On a rational level, one can say this is a silly purchase for a home recordist in an apartment.
But my own gut feeling about the machine (quite apart from the flawless audio and superb tape handling) is one both of pride and appreciation. Pride in finally being able to own a machine from such a legendary manufacturer, and appreciation of its fine engineering and ergonomics.

Plus, with the thing in the lovely shape it is (heads show no wear), I know it will hang in there for a good long time, which to me is no small selling point in this day and age with consumer reel-to-reels getting harder to get serviced. At least Studer parts are available new.

So, while I am emotionally attached to analog, I also tried to get practical about the buying end of it, spending more up front for more peace of mind. I can't say I liked putting out $2,700 for it, but it was well worth the money and the purchase happened right at a time when I had that money available, so no regrets.

Now for the "special" where you can get one of the last 2-inch 820-series Studers brand new for about $19,000......no way even if I had the money (Well maybe if I had a house)

Best,
C.

 

[cjacek]

Now for the "special" where you can get one of the last 2-inch 820-series Studers brand new for about $19,000......

The word from Studer is that they ALL have been sold out. Whatever Studer Switzerland had, they sent to Studer USA (Herman Group International USA) and the last A827's sold out quite fast.

 

[cjacek]

I own a TASCAM MS-16 which is a 1" 16 track recorder ...<snip>... I bought it back in 1996 for $3500.00 in poor shape. I've spent damn close to another $3K in service on it to get it back to 100% full functionality and original factory spec.

Jeff, can you tell me a bit more about the specifics of such restoration / repair and what exactly was done and how much each thing cost, approx? You know, just a more detailed story about your MS-16 and also why you had decided to purchase the machine is such condition originally?

 

[The Ghost of FM]

Jeff, can you tell me a bit more about the specifics of such restoration / repair and what exactly was done and how much each thing cost, approx? You know, just a more detailed story about your MS-16 and also why you had decided to purchase the machine is such condition originally?

Much of the work that was done on the MS-16 has already been detailed in previous threads but I guess I could re-list all the work done in point form.

- Re-lapping of both the sync and repro heads
- Complete calibration including all the mechanical preadjustments before the electronic ones
- Replacement of voltage regulator transistors on the main motor control board.
- Purchase of 6 spare channel cards
- lamp replacement of burned out lights in two of the VU meters
- Lamp replacements in the transport buttons on the deck
- Replacement of all guide posts and lifters
- 16 hours of bench time tracing down cold solder connections on multiple channel cards as well as in the head umbilical cables that connect the transport to the amp unit.
- replacement of approx. 20 defective relays on the channel cards and motherboard that they plug into.
-replacement of main filter caps in the AQ-65 auto locator.
- Probably a handful of other little things that I can't remember at this point too. Some of the work, I did myself and other jobs were left to Patrick at Teletech in Markham, Ontario @ $75 to $100 an hour for his time.

When I bought the deck, the seller was originally asking $4500.00 for it and I talked him down to $3500.00 because of the work I could see it needing at the point of purchase and with much less diagnostic skills under my belt at that point so I didn't really know everything the deck would need when I made him the offer I did.

If I knew then what I know now, I probably would have made a much lower offer or most likely would have ending up passing on that unit and hunting down another...though there are never many of these beasts around locally to chose from.

Cheers!

 

[SteveM]

I could forsee a revival of analog recording in top studios if enough big selling artists decided that they preferred that sound over digital, it could start a demand. Right now there are no big selling artist that have any clue what they're recording on to make a difference but that could change. Some of my favorite records in the last few years I found out were recorded analog. Chilli Peppers, Ray Lamontagne, Kings Of Leon.

 

[CoolCat]

this is always a contradicting topic for me...

yes, there seems to be a disappearance of great hifi equipment in most homes, though home theater is booming and the sub-woofer addition was a great one, but yet my old 45's vinyl were scratchy shit sounding crap but the groove was young, and the squashed mp3 sometimes sound like ASS, but the digital beauty of a 24/48 recorder is more complimentary than a hssing garble mush cassette with 14 tracks on it...

maybe the key here is fixing the mp3 mashed shit sound?

to record in digital is great, the tracking with natural analog sounds of course, but then the playback...what about the playback systems?

the Ipod earbuds versus a 1970's POwer amp with huge transformers and discrete components, with Tower 4 way speakers......

pc speakers have improved greatly. Sound cards and Video cards have improved greatly...so maybe there's still some hope for the kids.

Maybe they'll all have powered YSM1p's on the computers someday? or DynAudio BM5A's! nothing wrong with that.

My YSM1P's made my 4 way 1970's towers sound like MUDD FLUBBING ASS, even when listening to old material, say 1970 McCartneys first solo CD. The bass cleaned up the whole thing cleaned up thru the Active monitors.

thats my home speaker shootout for now...not sure how the whole MP3 squashing works?
soundclick versus windows media player versus the other 500,000 players?

 

[cjacek]

Much of the work that was done on the MS-16 has already been detailed in previous threads but I guess I could re-list all the work done in point form.

- Re-lapping of both the sync and repro heads
- Complete calibration including all the mechanical preadjustments before the electronic ones
- Replacement of voltage regulator transistors on the main motor control board.
- Purchase of 6 spare channel cards
- lamp replacement of burned out lights in two of the VU meters
- Lamp replacements in the transport buttons on the deck
- Replacement of all guide posts and lifters
- 16 hours of bench time tracing down cold solder connections on multiple channel cards as well as in the head umbilical cables that connect the transport to the amp unit.
- replacement of approx. 20 defective relays on the channel cards and motherboard that they plug into.
-replacement of main filter caps in the AQ-65 auto locator.
- Probably a handful of other little things that I can't remember at this point too. Some of the work, I did myself and other jobs were left to Patrick at Teletech in Markham, Ontario @ $75 to $100 an hour for his time.

When I bought the deck, the seller was originally asking $4500.00 for it and I talked him down to $3500.00 because of the work I could see it needing at the point of purchase and with much less diagnostic skills under my belt at that point so I didn't really know everything the deck would need when I made him the offer I did.

If I knew then what I know now, I probably would have made a much lower offer or most likely would have ending up passing on that unit and hunting down another...though there are never many of these beasts around locally to chose from.

Cheers!

Thanks for that Jeff! Yeah, I've read the stuff about the solder joints in past threads but the other stuff was new (to me ). A hell of a lotta work and very interesting reading and proof positive you can get an analog recorder, in just about any state of disrepair, working again like a precise swiss watch. The name of the games seems lots of money, parts and a good tech.

It seems odd though, that for an MS-16, approximating maybe only about 10 years (you bought it '96 and it was made maybe mid '80's?), that it would be in such a bad state.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

It seems odd though, that for an MS-16, approximating maybe only about 10 years (you bought it '96 and it was made maybe mid '80's?), that it would be in such a bad state.

It's not that odd when you consider that it came from a working studio and run night and day for several years. Keep in mind when TASCAM offered this piece originally, they pitched it to the smaller budget industrial market and for the most part, those were the folks who originally purchased these decks.

So, when you visited the fellow that had the 3 Otari's for sale, and described them as being in pretty poor shape, I was inspired to shed some light on what reality for this type of equipment, doing duty in the commercial world, really is... Sure, it's nice to find a babied, gently used deck but know that finding that is the exception and not the rule in this class of gear.

Cheers!

 

[cjacek]

Cool, point taken, Jeff.