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Thread: New studio space...considering my options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post



    I hope you're not talking about some of the foam acoustic insulation...?
    Most of your broadband traps and bass traps use the same type of insulation internally that are used for heat insulating purposes...it's just a matter of using the more rigid kind, or building frames and using the loose kind. When sound is dampened and trapped...it's all about heat transfer to the insulation.
    Also...I thought I was pretty clear that the whole room would be treated (same as my current studio). I mean...I've been through this before...this isn't my first studio space.
    I read back over my post and I never mentioned foam once.

    I was talking about Rockwool/fiberglass insulation.

    For example Rockwool RW3 acoustic insulation is 60kg per M3. It is very short fiber. A type of crumbly insulation. You would not use this as far as I know for thermal insulation. There are less dense types of acoustic insulation. But being as the denser they are the more expensive they are. I should imagine they are more effective when denser? Perhaps you know better? I know thermal insulation of this type tends to be a long strand stringy type of fiberglass.

    As regards what some people shove in their state of the art sound traps is up to them. But you will find that they thicker and denser they are (to a point), the better they are at reducing and absorbing sound....So I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orson View Post
    I read back over my post and I never mentioned foam once.

    I was talking about Rockwool/fiberglass insulation.

    For example Rockwool RW3 acoustic insulation is 60kg per M3. It is very short fiber. A type of crumbly insulation. You would not use this as far as I know for thermal insulation. There are less dense types of acoustic insulation. But being as the denser they are the more expensive they are. I should imagine they are more effective when denser? Perhaps you know better? I know thermal insulation of this type tends to be a long strand stringy type of fiberglass.

    As regards what some people shove in their state of the art sound traps is up to them. But you will find that they thicker and denser they are (to a point), the better they are at reducing and absorbing sound....So I believe.
    I have about 6" of Rockwool that was blown into my attic and some walls for thermal insulation. The RW-3 from what I know of it is a rigid panel type which can be used for either thermal or acoustic insulation.
    How to Compare Rock Wool and Fiberglass Insulation | Home Guides | SF Gate

    Rockwool - RW3 Acoustic Insulation Slab (1.2m x 600mm x 100mm - 2.88m2)
    Mark.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by arcaxis View Post
    I have about 6" of Rockwool that was blown into my attic and some walls for thermal insulation. The RW-3 from what I know of it is a rigid panel type which can be used for either thermal or acoustic insulation.
    How to Compare Rock Wool and Fiberglass Insulation | Home Guides | SF Gate

    Rockwool - RW3 Acoustic Insulation Slab (1.2m x 600mm x 100mm - 2.88m2)
    They do about 3 types of solid acoustic batt insulation panels of which RW3 is the most dense at 60kg per M3 and the most expensive.

    My point for sound you need the thickist most dense possible. For heat/thermal I think anything over 10"-12" of normal fluffy stuff is overkill and not effective. Then of course cost comes in to play as to what you can and is affordable to use. With sound you just need as good as you can get which is usually the most dense and unfortunately the most expensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr average View Post
    you clearly have more money and energy/time than I have.
    Not knowing much about you (unless you're a former HR member, now with a new handle )...to agree or disagree with you on your situation...
    ...but at this point I can cover this project financially and enough free time to see it through, but not enough time to put it off for 10-20 years down the road.
    Basically...it's now or never.

    AFA energy...not as much as I use to have, but certainly more than I will have down the road!
    Moving the studio would be require a lot of effort, for sure, but as long as I can just push on it once I get going, it won't be a problem, just a lot of work, and I think most of it will be fun...seeing the new studio being populated with gear...but it's still going to take some serious effort.
    Moving things like amps and guitars and stuff...that's a few days of work. The real effort, like I mentioned earlier, will be the racked gear, the console and rewiring the patchbays for a good amount of the gear.

    I kinda went through much of this a couple of years back when I swapped out my console...so I had to rewire most of the bays and then I also added some new rack gear, and that caused more rewiring. The nice thing with the bulk of the console/bay cabling, is that it's already pretty long. I acquired some really nice, long snakes with the console. My racked gear will probably need all new snakes, since I plan to also change the racked gear layout.
    Right now I have side racks on each end of the console...plus a couple really tall racks off to the side. What I want to do with the studio move would be to build (or buy) new racks that would all go behind my seated mix position...like you see in a lot of studios, so I can roll back the chair to the gear in the racks but still be seated in the center mix position for the most part. With the side racks, it's sometimes as PITA when I'm trying to make fine adjustments, and I gotta keep rolling back-n-forth from the center mix position to the racks.

    There's a lot of options I will consider, but I'm already formulating the layout in my mind's eye...and at some point I will draw it all out on paper, to scale, so I can check against my building measurements, and how everything will fit.

    All that said...the other option that I briefly mentioned at the start...the possibility of keeping my studio where it is, and then doing the addition but making it my living space, which would then free up a couple of rooms that are next to my current studio space...is still on the table if I want to avoid the big studio move, and all that. I think that idea is mostly being driven by my somewhat lower energy level than what I had some years back... ...but I really want the studio in the new, bigger space, and I'm sure that will win out unless the contractor comes back with some significant build issues, etc....but I doubt it.
    I still need to tell him that now I'm leaning toward a single, open space as opposed to splitting into two rooms...but I don't think that changes much for him. He's calculating the foundation, and the outer wall dimensions, plus the need to run some plumbing since I'm also adding a full bath as part of this build (not in the studio space, but off that foyer that connects the house to the what would be the new studio space).
    I'm guessing he would frame out the addition, attach the two roof sides to make one...and then remove that inside dividing wall, and complete the vaulted ceiling, tying everything together.
    I'll wait to see what he has to say....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orson View Post
    My point for sound you need the thickist most dense possible.
    Right...like I said, I already know all that. A year ago I built some bass traps that are 7" thick, using 3 sheets of 703 rigid fiberglass in each.
    My point to you was that you didn't really mention anything specific before, other than to say heat insulation is not the same as acoustic insulation...but that's not necessarily true.
    Rigid fiberglass is used substantially for broadband traps and bass traps, and so is Rockwool, among other things...that's usually what people "shove in their state of the art traps" ....yet that stuff is also used for heat insulation. You can even use the "soft" rolled pink insulation for acoustics, you just have to pack a whole lot more of it into the same space to get the same effect as the rigid sheets.

    In fact, most of that stuff was originally made for heat insulation...but eventually found to be also quite effective for acoustic treatment use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    Right...like I said, I already know all that. A year ago I built some bass traps that are 7" thick, using 3 sheets of 703 rigid fiberglass in each.
    My point to you was that you didn't really mention anything specific before, other than to say heat insulation is not the same as acoustic insulation...but that's not necessarily true.
    Rigid fiberglass is used substantially for broadband traps and bass traps, and so is Rockwool, among other things...that's usually what people "shove in their state of the art traps" ....yet that stuff is also used for heat insulation. You can even use the "soft" rolled pink insulation for acoustics, you just have to pack a whole lot more of it into the same space to get the same effect as the rigid sheets.

    In fact, most of that stuff was originally made for heat insulation...but eventually found to be also quite effective for acoustic treatment use.
    You can actually use a whole lot of things for acoustic treatments from cotton, wool to even the dreaded foam. There is a video on youtube referring to old towels. Why we still use fiberglass over more natural forms like sheeps wool is beyond me.

    Regards the bass traps. I would still use the most dense material available. Ramming loose thermal 'loft' insulation into a set space is not the same as using proper acoustic insulation (RW3). It does not work like that.

    Thermal insulation is different to acoustic insulation. It is manufactured differently besides being denser per weight/cubic meter. It is true you can use both for both so you could really end up arguing over something or nothing. I believe as I read somewhere that the fibers in acoustic fiberglass are laid down differently than thermal insulation.

    To make my booth I have used 18 bales of RW3. If I could have used standard rolls of fiberglass I would certainly have done so and saved a fortune in the process. I was at same time insulating the whole building. So it would have been very easy and far cheaper to just use the one kind of insulation for all purposes. But after researching it I found out you can use one for both applications and the other one really for only one application because it is nowhere as effective. Hence my empty pockets.
    Last edited by Orson; 03-16-2019 at 16:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orson View Post
    To make my booth I have used 18 bales of RW3. If I could have used standard rolls of fiberglass I would certainly have done so and saved a fortune in the process. I was at same time insulating the whole building. So it would have been very easy and far cheaper to just use the one kind of insulation for all purposes. But after researching it I found out you can use one for both applications and the other one really for only one application because it is nowhere as effective. Hence my empty pockets.
    Rolled fiberglass is not what I would ever bother using for acoustic treatment or traps, because you would need a lot of it, and then stuff/compress it.
    Like I said...I used Owens Corning 703 and 703 FRK which is no better or worse than Rockwool at equal thickness for acoustic use. The thing about the 703 I liked better is that when you handle it, it doesn't chunk off as easily as Rockwool...and at the time I was building my traps, I was able to find a really good deal on the 703 and 703 FRK. It was easier to get than the Rockwool or Roxul.

    Also...not that fiberglass is 100% safe-n-healthy...but Rockwool has additional oils and binding agents, and when initially unpacking for installation, can be quite full of dust from the manufacturing process, that you don't want to inhale.
    That's why I built my fiberglass traps outside, and sealed them within the frames before they ever came inside.

    So bottom line, and again my point...neither of those products are specifically/solely meant for "acoustic treatment". They are both primarily for heat insulating used during building construction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orson View Post
    Regards the bass traps. I would still use the most dense material available.
    Actually, not true, you don't want the most dense fibreboard available. You want to target 3lb/ft3 which is what OC703 is. OC705 is 6lb/ft3 and that is too dense. Sound can't penetrate into the fibers as easily and reflects back into the room.

    Rockwool RW3 is 60kg/m3 which is 3.7lb/ft3, so the two products are pretty similar in regard to acoustic absorbtion.



    Very cool what you're doing Miro. I'm excited for you and glad you have the resources to get what you want. Hope you get pics up at some point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chili View Post

    Very cool what you're doing Miro. I'm excited for you and glad you have the resources to get what you want. Hope you get pics up at some point.
    Thanks.
    For sure...when actual construction/moving begins...I will most certainly document the process with pictures. I was kind hoping to get going on it a bit sooner, but this one contractor can't go until June, but he's easy to work with, and isn't just a contractor "crew" that signs on for a very specific job that they will bang out quick and leave...so with this guy I think I will be able to take a bit more time and make adjustments if needed, with some flexibility.

    I'm ultimately looking to have things done at least by the end of the summer...before the leaves start to fall...so I think the June start will be OK. He said the basic addition portion of the project will be 6-8 weeks, and then the other stuff I need for the general house remodeling will come after that.

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    All power to your's and your builder's elbow Miroslav. If I were just 5 years yonger and had two good eyes I would offer to come over and do all that "boring soldering" for ham&eggs and a bed!

    Dave.

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