theory question

Frankie Rage said:
One thing I have noticed about you theory guys, you don't half write long posts about it!

WHO are you trying to convince? ;)
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:D

Ah there's the difference. My generation thinks a few pages is SHORT. Not even a light warm up. Practically invisible.....

I regularly read entire books :eek: You should see my house - over 2,000 books. Scary. Not only that but we've read them all - some more than once.... How weird is that????


Chris
 
...

we have arrived at a concensus of sorts... people in the theory camp admit the ear is a powerful tool, and that seemingly random noodling often slowly crafts up, using the ear as a guide into a beautiful original sounding creation...

conversely, many "ear" and "gotta feel it, man... really feel it..." members realize they are using theory whether they use it formally, or only thru "what sounds good"

both sides are right!

YOU!! go read another book!!

You!!! drnk a beer and play guitar and noodle!!

Everybody go write music and make something beautful, then we'll post it for each other !!!

Everybody understands music in a different way!!

many life long musicians would rather b dragged thru a pile of thumbtacks and rubbing alcohol than go to beethoven symphony... also, some people cant stand simple strumming and "everyman's soulful words" of a basic "3 chords and the truth" folk country song...

in the time I have posted this, "spontobeat boy" has likely woke up to take a p!$$, and recorded 3 more cd's, and most ironically to me... THEY ALL SUND GOOD (I went and listened)

heck, I aint much for the blues in general, 'cept for the occasional bbking is okay... and hey, thats some really good stuff he's making...
 
Hakea said:
:D

See, there's the "straw man". Some nasty pedant who tells you that you have to do it their way or you'll never be any good... :rolleyes: I expect they do exist somewhere, but the theory enthusiasts that I know don't say that at all. They're all well aware of the benefits of judging things by ear - they even do 'ear training' to improve their skills in that department. What they do say is that more knowledge is useful.
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I think you just created a straw man by doing this. You only took what you wanted to about my statement, and disregarded the rest, where I said (paraphrasing) "even though they can't tell you the names of things, they understand how they work, and they know the sound of them, which is much more important."

If you're admittedly a beginner in theory, then it's safe to say that I know much more music theory than you and have much more experience with people that know much more theory than you. Several of those people can tell you everything you'd like to know about music theory, but their compositions all sound bland and just like everything else. They've read up on the theory, but they haven't spent the time learning what it sounds like, which is the most important thing. This is what the Beatles had; they knew what things sounded like.

Other than communicating with other musicians, it doesn't matter if you know the terms for things, as long as you know how they sound. You could be talking to someone who speaks a different language, and therefore you wouldn't know if they "knew" any theory or not. But after playing with them for a few minutes even, I bet you'll easily be able to tell if they're knowledgable about music or a noodler.

And when I say "knowledgable," I don't mean knowing the terms for things. I mean having an informed ear and being able to transfer what you hear in your head (or transferring what you hear other people play) to your instrument.
 
Creativity is the ability to recognize patterns and synthesis new patterns from two existing one (or parts there of).

Theory, if you have the penchant for it, identifies patterns for you and how you might synthesize them into unique and hopefully million dollar selling patterns or self; friend or ‘discerning audience’ pleasing patterns for the less fiscally motivated. You can also discover this by your own musical meanderings; referred to as ‘noodling’? I am sure you can also do this with a combination of both I shall declare as ‘thoodling’.

I do not believe that theory, noodling or thoodling lies at the heart of creativity however– they are just the wheels on the car, where you drive it is up to you. Extending the analogy certain tires work better in some conditions than others, depending where and how fast you want to drive.

If you take song music serious, even as a serious hobby, then an adaptive reflective approach to writing, arranging, playing and recording is more important than supremacy of theory or experimentation in your music life.

As always I tend to choose the 'middle of the road' in everything except my style of music!
 
....

I'm going to do a partial "about face" here and tip my hat to the "ears" crowd. I can acquire bits and pieces of basic theory much faster than my "ears" can DO anythign with it...

(frowning...)

I can HEAR a complicated piece of music in my head, but can rarely MAKE it. When i TRY, it usually turns into something totally different, though sometimes "neat".

I INTEND to re-write somethign by ear, but the same thing generally happens, it turns into sometrhign else, which might occasionally actually be "neat".

I'm actually jealous of the "good ear", and there seems to be very little to speed this process up. Still, sometimes somethign comes out cool, and its very satisfying. But, I could never accept a commission fo anything even if someone DID like something, as you could tell me to write a classical piece, and it might come out an electric guitar song, or vice versa.

I just noodle, and then theory helps me make choices. Being self taught is no great prize either, as I read random theory on the internet, and some "sinks in of its own accord" a piece here, a bit there... living in a small hick town, I dont have a pool of musical talent to choose friends to hang out with, like I would have in a city, hence, all the half decent musicians ar IN a band already.

This leaves the internet for me... LMAO

*shrugs* I dont know HOW I got to have a desire to learn to compose, I just "do" *shrugs* why does a person work on a rubiks cube, climb a mountain, or do a crossword puzzle? Because Its there, I guess.... and its more satisfying than hanging out in a bar.
 
What makes a good songwriter or composer?

Creative talent.

I would suggest that you can't learn talent either in a classroom or by noodling.

But EVERYONE has some creative talent when they start out and some knowledge of musical theory will help anyone make the best of what they have, but no more that, and then only to a limited degree.

Taking The Beatles as an example again, I am sure they picked up some useful tips and ideas from their musically educated Producer, George Martin...

But, he wasn't the one writing the hits... :D
 
You know what?

people that learn to do something, and find out they have an aptitude for it that makes it easir for them to pick up? They *love* to believe the idea that they have "it", and others simply dont have it. It makes them feel "special".

a (locally, anyways...lol) pool shark told me I didnt have "it" to learn to take peoples money at pool. *after I am warmed up, I can look away on 8 ball shots, when its for 20 bux a rack*

when i did it all the time, I beat a fair number of "dart snobs"... with HOUSE DARTS. made more than a few "heroes" dang near cry.

mechanics assured me I couldnt diagnose complex engine repairs... manuals and experience cured that.

electronics? I used to do the junior year end projects for the EE candidates at the university... and I was in a different major, LMAO

benchrest shooting? Prcision reloading? home gunsmithing and rebarreling and setting headspace with no training nor proper tools? choking out a large muscular lunatic fully twice my size and strength?

ALL these things, I have been assured by "eggspurts" I didnt have "it", so I could never "really do it". (they of course, had "it", be it heart... coordination... strength.... whatEVER)

there's ONE thing I have learned in this life in 40 years and counting... once you learn t do "any 3 things" that you are convinced you just CANT do, and veryon assures you that you dont have "it"??? *your balls drop*

you develop confidence. confidence to know yu can DO, not just try, and that It just persevrance and confidence... and the smarter you are, the less tries it takes you to do it, by being logical about it.

confidence + perseverance + intelligence = "it"/"creativity"/"whatever"

and thats the name of that tune (pun intended) anyONE can do anyTHING, its just a matter of how many times your willing to back out on the mat... thats assuming one has average intelligence of course, and you dont let your ego get in th way.

MANY great men, when you read of them, are quoted as having no talent, nor "it" for what they wanted to do. They all relate the moment they said "thats it... I'm gonna do it, come hell or high water".

When I was young, there were a great many things I WISHED I could do, I just knew I couldn't, or worse yet, on top of that sme "expert" in th field assured me I didnt have "something" in me I needed.

One fine day, I made a list. I cant think of a singl thing that was on that list, ever, that wasn't crossed off, after I learned to do it in a passable fashion, or even to the point people started saying "huh... your pretty good at this"

One day 5 years ago, the old lady left, and I needed *something* to "do" that was "impossible" so I would keep my sanity. Th only thing I could think of, was "become a reasonably accompished classical composer", because it was the ONE thing I was inherently sure I just could not "do". The idea was that since it couldnt be done, my busy mind would be occupied so I could go about my life.

in 4 or 5 years of hobby... I went from "the face" (you know the face, think of the first thing you ever played/wrote, LMAO) to now I regularly hear "actually, that aint that bad... that one part there is actually really cool. I cant believe you actually MADE that..."

I concentrate on composing. Not playing ANYthing, not recording, not mixing, not on lyrics, just composing... single minded doggedness like ANYthing I have learned to do.

you see, "talent and creativity" is a LATIN phrase. Roughly translated, it means "talent, testicular fortitude, and half a brain or better"... AND, if more kids would read Napoleonic History, we wouldnt be a nation of sniveling, whining, therapy-needing &^%$-twits.

if trying does not kill me, *my will be done*
 
SED: the good news is you can "think" what you like... :)

You can think you can turn the tide back, if you like.

If you are telling me you can learn talent then you can tell me that if you like.

You can certainly enhance what talent you have by application, and more power to your elbow... there often needs to be a lot of "perspiration" expended in enhancing talent!

But if the ground is fertile (you have talent) the seeds will surely grow!

Good luck with it! :)

Fx

P.S. I would agree that almost anybody can become a (mediocre or even "quite good") anything, including composer and song writer. It takes talent to go beyond the mediocre IMHO. Believe something different if you like. We must all believe in something... or nothing. *demonic laughter*
 
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