reverb VST plugin vs. ouboard digital reverb

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fendorst

New member
I use Reaper running on Windows XP. Reaper includes VST plugins, including reverb. The question isn't about Reaper's reverb plugin, though, rather about any VST reverb plugin.

A VST reverb plugin is a digital approximation of real analog reverb. Basically digital distortion, but users consider it pleasing distortion. The better the plugin, the more pleasing.

I also have an outboard Alessis Nanoverb reverb unit. It too creates digital reverb.

I know if I use the Nanoverb when tracking I can't change the sound later. Using a VST plugin I can tweak the reverb after the fact. But I'm not asking about usability issues.

I'd like to know which is considered preferable? Am I better off using the Nanoverb so as not to tax my CPU resources? Is it likely that the digital approximation in the Nanoverb is "better" than the digital approximation in the Reaper reverb plugin because the Nanoverb was optimized to do only one thing well? Or since the Reaper plugin is so much newer, is it likely to be better than a 10-year-old Nanoverb? Are they both garbage? Should I just listen to the difference and use the one that sounds good to me?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts/opinions.
 
The truth is, the basic algorithm for digital reverb was known for decades before the computing power existed to actually implement it in real-time. It hasn't changed since it was first discovered. The difference between the VST and outboard unit is negligible.
 
A decent plugin should have processing at least as good as a cheap unit like a Nanoverb, and the plugin avoids the Nanoverb's budget grade converters.
 
I should qualify my previous comments by saying this:

A recent implementation will be better because it will have been written for a faster processor. So a new VST would probably be better than the reverb on an effects unit built in the late 1980s or early 1990s.
 
fendorst said:
Should I just listen to the difference and use the one that sounds good to me?
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I'd go with that one. If you don't want to make the effort, I'd bet on the VST.

Am I better off using the Nanoverb so as not to tax my CPU resources?
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Yes, if you're having a problem that's caused by overtaxing your CPU resources. If you're not, you're solving a problem you don't have.

Is it likely that the digital approximation in the Nanoverb is "better" than the digital approximation in the Reaper reverb plugin because the Nanoverb was optimized to do only one thing well?
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No. The algorithm that the VST uses is also optimzied to do only one thing well.

Or since the Reaper plugin is so much newer, is it likely to be better than a 10-year-old Nanoverb?
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Yes. Not so much because the algorithm is somehow more magic, as because the processing power available to the VST (even though it's sharing your CPU with the rest of your DAW) probably puts the ASIC in the Nanoverb to shame in almost every way.

Are they both garbage?
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No. Unless you're of the school that anything that's not the best you can get is therefore garbage. People have made very good recordings with considerably less capable tools.
 
It's not so much that the NanoVerb reverb was optimized to do one thing well as it was optimized for the limited computing resources of the DSPs that were available back then. Modern reverbs tend to implement early reflections and other parameters that older devices couldn't handle, simply because there is now sufficient CPU power to handle them.
 
all seems logical so far. basically the math is the same, but the machines have gotten better at processing the math, so newer is "better."

not actually having CPU usage problems.

more thoughts?
 
fendorst said:
... I know if I use the Nanoverb when tracking I can't change the sound later. ...
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True but instead of tracking with it, at mix after you've recorded it hook it up with a send to one of your harware outs and a pair of returns to a new track. Dial it in for the mix, then record it as a reverb track (or three or four tracks, delays' whatever).
Unless it's compensated in the DAW you'll have a bit of latency set back on the outboard tracks, experimenting with that is akin to adjusting a predealy on the verb.
 
fendorst said:
A VST reverb plugin is a digital approximation of real analog reverb. Basically digital distortion, but users consider it pleasing distortion. The better the plugin, the more pleasing.
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There hasn't been an "analogue reverb" since the days of springs and plates in a box--and thank goodness those days are gone!

To be pedantic, reverb isn't distortion. It's delayed reflections. A "Cathedral" reverb is replicating the effect you get when a point source sound bounces off the irregular hard surfaces all over the room. Basically, it's a collection of echoes, all timed slightly differently. In psycho-acoustic terms, this series of echoes is considered very pleasing on certain musical styles.

Modern algorithms can recreate this sound pretty darn accurately. In fact, when you get up to convolution reverbs, they use the sound of a recorded pulse in an actual space to recreate exactly the effect of the space.

Which leads to the Nanoverb. I used to own one of those and actually quite liked it at the time. It was simple, but some of the preset reverbs were quite pleasing to the ear. Ironically, though, my favourite Nanoverb reverb was actually "Plate 1" which, rather than an imitation of an actual reverberant space, was imitating an analogue imitation of a reverb!

Anyhow, back to your question--you'll be better off using reverb plug ins than the Nanoverb. The Nano adds quite a bit of noise to your signal and is pretty limited in the settings. A modern VST (the Nanoverb must be approaching 20 years old) will do a lot more and sound a lot better. However, the key is to NOT stick to presets but learn to adjust things to get exactly what you want. The first control to play with is one called "early reflections" or something similar--then try out the rest.

And, just to recommend a favourite of mine, try GLACEVERB. I have lots of plug ins but that's the one I come back to most frequently.

Bob
 
diggy_dude:
thanks for the KVR link, been there many times, got lots of VSTs, great resource.

mixsit:
"True but instead of tracking with it, at mix after you've recorded it hook it up with a send to one of your harware outs and a pair of returns to a new track."

i know about this, just have an older laptop with limited in/outs. don't want to use the laptop soundcard and laptop headphone jack for an out, so i may eventually get an in/out card or whatever. at the moment i can't/don't send anything out of the DAW for outboard processing and then return it back in.

Bobbsy:
"There hasn't been an 'analogue reverb' since the days of springs and plates in a box--and thank goodness those days are gone! To be pedantic, reverb isn't distortion."

when i said "real analog reverb" i meant real-world reverb... sound reflections bouncing around in a space surrounded by surfaces. i guess i shouldn't have called that "analog" reverb, since it's real actual reverb. i understand it's not distortion, it's the reality of what happens to sound inside a space.

a digital approximation of that, however good, is still distortion, though, right? you send a dry signal in and a different signal comes out. it's pleasing distortion, it may be real close to what happens in reality, but it's still distortion because the signal that comes out isn't the same as the signal that went in. that's all i meant. i understand that real-world reverb isn't distortion, it's reality!

thanks to all, consensus is go with VST. if anyone wants to send me $11,000, i'll try the TC system thingie and let you all know how it compares to the Nanoverb.
 
moresound said:
And I hold dear to my heart the T.C. Electronics M-one and D-two.
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...as do I for live work! So I'll just point to THIS recent thread giving a link to a free download of a TC Electronic VST reverb plug in. Despite the age, the link still works! I'm still experimenting but, as a TC fan, I've found some useful stuff there!

Bob
 
I don't have a giant cave in the back yard but the wife's stupid new puppy is busy trying to create one in our lawn. Maybe I should be grateful instead of yelling.
 
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