Recording Grand Piano

M

MannyElFuego

New member
Morning Chaps, hope everyone is well.
I'm new here, first post.

I'll try my best to include all the information I can so that I don't waste anyone's time!

I am attempting to record some solo piano music but cannot figure out why my recordings sound so muddy. It almost sounds like the recording is underwater.
I have tried the usual EQ tricks e.g. pulling down 200-300Hz among other things. Have also gone through all of Logic X's piano EQ presets for the fun of it but no change. Separation is abysmal (even when panning each channel hard) . Evidently I need the source recording to be better before I even start to think about mixing! This is why I'm asking for your help as I can't seem to figure out where I'm going wrong.

If I could hear an improvement when I move the mic positions around then I would keep persevering until I found the golden position. However, wherever I move the mic this muddy, underwater, old pub piano sound prevails.

Grand Piano (excellent - surely not the problem)
Pair of Oktava MK-012 cardioid microphones
Roland DuoCapture Audio Interface (2 audio inputs)
Logic Pro X
Have checked with other cables - no change.

I am using the Oktavas in a QRTF configuration at 100 degrees with the bisection of the mics being a line to the lowest piano key

I------4m--------
IPIANO XX X I Please forgive the rudimentary diagram.
IPIANO XXXXX I X = mic position I have tried at varying mic heights.
IPIANO X I Lid obviously opens towards those mic positions.
I seat I Have tried with different lid positions.
I X 12m
I I
I X I
I I
I-----------------I

Ceiling height 4m
Wooden floorboards so have tried with blankets on floor and beneath mic stand.

I managed to use swap one of the Oktava's out for a Neumann km86 and there was no improvement (I am aware you shouldn't record ORTF with unmatched mics but this was simply to see if the problems was with the Oktavas).

Please let me know if you'd like any more information that might help.

Any assistance would really be appreciated, thank you so much.

---------- Update ----------

It seems my diagram didn't turn out the way it appeared when I wrote this post.
So, room dimensions are:
width 4m
length 12m
height 4m
Piano is in top left corner
Have tried mic positions all around that area. There should be some "Xs"/mic positions in the bare bottom right area of the diagram in the original post but they have been moved when I posted it.
 
A couple of things and I will try and keep it simple.

First, are you recording close to the piano? Could be the room.

Another possible problem is you could be recording too hot and it sounds muddy, but could be distortion.

Post a sample and I think others could help better.

Use sound cloud for your link, it just makes it easier.
 
When recording piano questions turn up I always start with this link.

Secondly the room the piano is in is everything to do with the sound.

Cheers
Alan.
 
Well - if we could hear your muddy recording, we could suggest solutions but your explanation is so complicated I can't understand the setup at all. How about a picture?

I fear all you may be doing is trying to use technology to 'repair' inappropriate mic positioning. I don't mean wrong. I mean 'wrong' for that particular instrument. You need to go back to basics.

What does the piano actually sound like in the room? Lovely, rich and lacking mechanical clumps bumps and jangles? If it does, I'd be surprised. Some grand pianos simply record badly. Sometimes it's the piano, sometimes the room, and sometimes both.

You need to consider what it is you are trying to do. Recording a Germanic concert pianist playing Schubert with iron fingers at shattering volume is different from somebody playing Satie. Or Elton John. What do you want it to sound like? A concert quality instrument in a concert hall, a general quality instrument playing modern music on stage, lounge jazz, supporting piano for a jazz singer?

All these things need different techniques, and I'd throw away the plug ins and notions that you suck out a frequency range - these are repair tools. You need one thing. A pair of quality headphones that you are very familiar with and know and understand what they sound like on loads of sources and music styles. They need to keep out the room. I like Beyer DT100s - not remotely the best quality headphones but I know them very well. Then one condenser. Hold it in your hand and get the pianist to just play - lid on full stick to start with. Then with your arm becoming the mic stand, explore the sound. Start by standing in the cutout on the pianist's right and aim the mic at the piano strings. What can you hear? Move around. Find out where the sound comes from. Very often a grand piano's main sound comes from the soundboard not the strings directly. This is why many people find the sound 'wrong'. If you go closer to the strings it brightens up - either positively or negatively. With one mic is there some areas where it sounds like you want it to? At that point you might be getting close. As the eq is set to flat, see if anything leaps out? Maybe a few notes that sound louder, or worse of all horrible thumping and creaks from the dampers and hammer shifts as the pedals are operated. Older pianos often have worn or compressed pads, so pedal releases make a percussive sound and hard stamping makes creaks. Eventually you find a single mic position. Experiment moving the mics slightly towards bass and treble. Establish how far you can shift before the sound loses the magic. This gives you the usable range - stick a mic at the edges of this area and repeat your test - does the stereo image flow nicely from left to right.

If this dos;t produce the right sound, then do the same on half stick. Better? If you cannot find that magic sound, then you go off book and try weird things. Yamaha C3 grands are a bit odd - they have a quite nice and usable sound underneath, about a foot away from where the pedal frame joins - and a mic pointing up at that position can blend nicely with top mics, and not produce too much pedal noise. Doesn't work on anything else though - that I have found. Indeed, on stage, you can use this position to get decent sound for a pianist who hates microphones.

Experiment - with one problem piano, I had real issues - and had an assistant - who because I was getting cross, I kept sending back in to move things while I listened, next door. All of a sudden, we had it - just the right sound. After the session I packed away on my own and discovered the two large mics that did the trick were in their mounts upside down, so they were facing upwards, and what we recorded was actually bounce of the lid. I would NEVER have done that, but we got a happy accident. That technique I have used again since. Never seen that in any book, and technically it is wrong and shouldn't work.

What I am trying to say is stop trying to fix things and spend all your time on flat eq and mic positioning. I'm pretty sure your issue is simply that you have not yet found the right place for that particular instrument and room. Somethings can be saved with EQ. Grand pianos are not one of them. They MUST sound good with flat eq. If they don't, you didn't get placement right. EQ can make good into excellent. It cannot make poor into good. Stereo from say a metre away in X/Y in a nice room sounds nice. In a bad room it can be yucky in exactly the same position, and then you have to go in close and deal with a totally different sound.

I'm never that picky about mic choices - from preference, large diaphragm would be my choice, but if I had to use something else, I'd be pretty ok about it. SDC mics can be a bit harsh - which fights with grand pianos. Of course some, like the old AKG451 types are smooth enough, but in emergencies I have even used SM57s - the results are perhaps a little lacking top end sparkle, but for lounge jazz, middle of the road and seventies type piano, they actually do a good job- but the killer is simply placement.

Without hearing what you recorded, I'm just guessing.
 
Unless you are in an acoustically wonderful room, I wouldn't use ORTF mic placement. The room you're in is almost certainly the cause of the muddyness you have and no amount of post processing is going to fix it.

In a small, untreated room I'd go for a close miking technique. As a beginning, try two parallel cardioid microphones spaced less than 24 inches (60 cm) apart and positioned over the mid hammers pointing 45° downwards and at the pianist. Experiment with the piano on a long or short stick. Also, take those placements as a starting point and experiment with small changes. You should find a lot more detail in your recording this way and, if you want some room effect, add a small amount of a good quality reverb.
 
Thank you all for your excellent advice, it really is appreciated.
Rob, I've written a short album for solo piano. Some pieces have sections that in terms of dynamics range greatly - Debussy/Satie to Rachmaninov triple forte I'd say haha. Therefore I am after a respectable sound quality given that it is the main feature. Ideally it would be a concert sound like you said but I am aware of the obvious limitations recording at home brings. I agree, I need to leave EQ alone for now.
I will sign up to SoundCloud upload a recording as soon as I can (later today), try the mic placements you have suggested and walk around with the mic to try and find that ideal position.
Bobbsy, I will try your close miking technique, thank you.
DM60, thanks for your suggestion, I am not recording too hot though.

Massive thank you to everyone for your help so far, really lovely that you've taken the time to help a new member.
 
These two are recorded in the original QRTF position.
https://soundcloud.com/user-718966020/original-qrtf-debussy-quiet
https://soundcloud.com/user-718966020/original-qrtf-debussy-loud

I've waved the mics around a fair bit now and the link below is a small section of the best quality recording I got while doing so.
It does sound better than the recordings above, though I can't seem to get rid of that mushiness.
https://soundcloud.com/user-718966020/best-sound-i-could-get

No EQ, no reverb etc.
Each mic panned 35 degrees

Piano will be tuned on Monday which should help haha

Much love,

Manny
 
Are you using any compression? I read the above post, just making sure.

Also try moving the mics more towards the upper end. Maybe you are getting too much of the lower part of the piano and it isn't balancing out. You may not want the middle for micing.
 
Recording solo grand piano is my speciality.

First - you need a good piano in a good room - the piano *has* to sound good in the room.

Second - you really need a pair of omni mics (you lose the bottom octave with directional mics).

My starting position is 20cm spaced omnis at about 2m from the piano and at about ear height or a little higher - listen and experiment to find the best postion - it will vary as to room, piano, pianist and what you are recording.

The mics I use are:- Gefell M221, Senheiser MKH 20, Sennheiser MKH 8020 or Neumann KM 131-D.

I hope this helps.
 
Two things - first thing is get it tuned, and the dampers adjusted. mechanically it's quite quiet, but the tuning is pretty rough - so that's easily fixable. Second thing is that it has one of those characteristics that make it a nice piano to play perhaps, but a bit of a rotten one to make sound good on a recording. The mic placement is a little close for this instrument I think, and probably placement needs rethinking, but I suspect it's not going to give you a sound you like. The particular sound is 'old'. There could be somewhere more untypical to try the mics. Start with one. Forget the other and try various places. If it's you playing, I'd set up the mic and take a picture and announce it on the test recording so you can match up what you hear to the postions later on.

I hope you like a challenge. The tuning will help with those jangly harmonics where they're beating badly - which will settle it down a little, but how does your recording compare to real life?
 
John Willett said:
Recording solo grand piano is my speciality.

First - you need a good piano in a good room - the piano *has* to sound good in the room.

Second - you really need a pair of omni mics (you lose the bottom octave with directional mics).

My starting position is 20cm spaced omnis at about 2m from the piano and at about ear height or a little higher - listen and experiment to find the best postion - it will vary as to room, piano, pianist and what you are recording.

The mics I use are:- Gefell M221, Senheiser MKH 20, Sennheiser MKH 8020 or Neumann KM 131-D.

I hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Trouble is, the original poster described the room available to him and there's little to no chance it's a "good room". Trying to make your technique work in an ordinary domestic room (as described above) is going to yield disappointing results, particularly if the OP spent money on copying your omni mics.

Now, if we were in a wonderfully treated professional studio or maybe a good concert hall, I'd be with you...but it's pretty hard to pack your grand piano into your Honda Civic and borrow such a space.
 
Bobbsy said:
Trouble is, the original poster described the room available to him and there's little to no chance it's a "good room". Trying to make your technique work in an ordinary domestic room (as described above) is going to yield disappointing results, particularly if the OP spent money on copying your omni mics.

Now, if we were in a wonderfully treated professional studio or maybe a good concert hall, I'd be with you...but it's pretty hard to pack your grand piano into your Honda Civic and borrow such a space.
Click to expand...

I *have* actually recorded a piano recital in a space not that different from the one described.

I found omni mics were much better than directional ones (and I tested beforehand).

But - the position was quite different from that which I would normally use.

I listened and walked around and placed the mics where the piano sounded best to my ears.

The CD ended up on the Cirrus Digital Classics label and was the complete set of Chopin Nocturns.

A technician, as has been said, should get the piano right before the session (on many sessions I do, the technician is there all day).

Maybe move the piano within the room if doing that gets a better sound.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top