Lady Policeman

[NL5]

Wow!

What a difference in the depth and clarity. Night and day! I have both versions on the hard drive, and switching back and forth, and it is just unbelievable the difference!

There are still a few things I'd work on maybe - The snare seems to be coming from the sides, instead of the middle - seems kinda odd, and I'd put a bit more weight into the toms and the kick - make them a bit more direct sounding and a bit less overhead maybe.

Again though, the two versions are leagues apart! Amazing.

 

[Supercreep]

Wow!

What a difference in the depth and clarity. Night and day! I have both versions on the hard drive, and switching back and forth, and it is just unbelievable the difference!

There are still a few things I'd work on maybe - The snare seems to be coming from the sides, instead of the middle - seems kinda odd, and I'd put a bit more weight into the toms and the kick - make them a bit more direct sounding and a bit less overhead maybe.

Again though, the two versions are leagues apart! Amazing.

I credit Greg_L's trick of nudging the OH tracks to line up with the close mic'd snare hits.

 

[Incanus]

Wow!

What a difference in the depth and clarity. Night and day! I have both versions on the hard drive, and switching back and forth, and it is just unbelievable the difference!

It IS amazing the way that changing the drum-mix affects the mix as a whole. As usual, we learn something new with every recording we make. Coming along, coming along. . .

 

[NL5]

It IS amazing the way that changing the drum-mix affects the mix as a whole. As usual, we learn something new with every recording we make. Coming along, coming along. . .

Drums have a LOT to do with how much depth there is in a mix. I also am a big fan of time aligning my tracks. One question though, how do you mic your OH's? I've found that if you are going to time align, they need to be EXACTLY the same distance from the center of the snare top. Musicians look at me like I'm crazy when I bust out the tape measure........

 

[Supercreep]

Drums have a LOT to do with how much depth there is in a mix. I also am a big fan of time aligning my tracks. One question though, how do you mic your OH's? I've found that if you are going to time align, they need to be EXACTLY the same distance from the center of the snare top. Musicians look at me like I'm crazy when I bust out the tape measure........

One problem with this approach for us is that the snare is not in the center of the drum kit.

We used an X-Y setup right for this song, over a fairly large kit. The overheads are approximately half way between the cymbal tops and the 703 clouds above.

There is also a single omni room mic approximately the same distance out in front of the kit.

Some of our imaging problems are, obviously, due to this setup. We'll try something a little different next time.



Thanks for taking the time to explain. I appreciate it very much.


-Casey

 

[NL5]

One problem with this approach for us is that the snare is not in the center of the drum kit.

We used an X-Y setup right for this song, over a fairly large kit. The overheads are approximately half way between the cymbal tops and the 703 clouds above.

There is also a single omni room mic approximately the same distance out in front of the kit.

Some of our imaging problems are, obviously, due to this setup. We'll try something a little different next time.



Thanks for taking the time to explain. I appreciate it very much.


-Casey

Interesting. What is making the snare seem to come from the two sides, and not in the center? I'm just nit picking - the mix sounds excellent. That's the main thing that bugged me about it though. I am curious to know for my own benefit as well.

Thank you for explaining everything too. Everybody can learn a thing or two here.

BTW - I have never seen a kit with the snare in the middle......

 

[Supercreep]

What is making the snare seem to come from the two sides, and not in the center?

I imagine it's the single room mic in mono, compressed at 20:1 .....

 

[Concrete_Lake]

But, assuming the room mic is panned down the center, it would make the snare less wide, which isn't the case.

Anyway the mix sounds great I'll give it a listen on headphones later but no comments at this stage, apart from the snare thing..

Loving the song more and more as well.

 

[NL5]

But, assuming the room mic is panned down the center, it would make the snare less wide, which isn't the case.

Anyway the mix sounds great I'll give it a listen on headphones later but no comments at this stage, apart from the snare thing..

Loving the song more and more as well.

So I'm not crazy.

I listened again. It almost sounds like you moved the OH's slightly ahead of the snare, or the snare slightly behind the OH's maybe? Or the room mic? Either that, or the reverb or delay signal is somehow hitting the mix before the dry signal? I dunno. Again, great mix. I really just want to know what it is I'm hearing............It wasn't that way in the first mix btw.

edit - btw, great song too. Got the dang thing stuck in my head!

 

[Supercreep]

So I'm not crazy.

I listened again. It almost sounds like you moved the OH's slightly ahead of the snare, or the snare slightly behind the OH's maybe? Or the room mic? Either that, or the reverb or delay signal is somehow hitting the mix before the dry signal? I dunno. Again, great mix. I really just want to know what it is I'm hearing............It wasn't that way in the first mix btw.

edit - btw, great song too. Got the dang thing stuck in my head!

The transient peaks on the snares are lined up (as exactly as I can make them) with the transient peaks on the overhead tracks.

I did not similarly align the room mic track. All the toms are gated to death, so I doubt they're a problem.

/shrugs/

 

[Incanus]

One thing I don't understand:

If the snare is being heard on both sides, wouldn't it then, therefore, be in the middle??? (or close to it?)

The close snare mic and the under-snare mic are centered, and the room mic is centered.

I must be missing something, or not understanding properly.

 

[XLR]

The new mix is stellar. I hadn’t noticed the previous drum issues so much, as I tend to instinctively focus on the guitars I guess, next to that the vocals. But it makes a big difference.

 

[Dogman]

One thing I don't understand:

If the snare is being heard on both sides, wouldn't it then, therefore, be in the middle??? (or close to it?)

The close snare mic and the under-snare mic are centered, and the room mic is centered.

I must be missing something, or not understanding properly.

I don't have a problem with the snare...it seems fine to me. Maybe what others are hearing is the overheads giving the snare slightly different sound from each speaker....more of a room sound?

 

[NL5]

One thing I don't understand:

If the snare is being heard on both sides, wouldn't it then, therefore, be in the middle??? (or close to it?)

The close snare mic and the under-snare mic are centered, and the room mic is centered.

I must be missing something, or not understanding properly.

I'm not understanding either. It's something I've never heard before. I would actually really like to know how it happened, as it would be cool for effect. It's only in the newer mix, not the old one. Unless, I am completely insane and it's all in my head. Are you hearing it?

Hold on! I finally just decided to pull up SF at take a look. Never done that before, but thought maybe I'd see something. Ah ha! Your two tracks have the snare hit at different times and the polarity is reversed! I'm not crazy. Well, OK, I am, but that's a whole 'nother story.

 

[NL5]

Here is a snare hit from "Shoot To Thrill" by AC/DC -

Here is a snare hit from "Lady Policeman" -

See how the hit is out of time, and of opposite polarity?

 

[Concrete_Lake]

Haha, well done, I was going to suggest that the OH's may be out of phase...

 

[Supercreep]

What two tracks are you comparing? L/R? or is this between the two mixes? And does this take into account the mono room mic?


How do I resolve this?


Thanks for helping a noob out.

 

[NL5]

What two tracks are you comparing? L/R? or is this between the two mixes?


How do I resolve this?


Thanks for helping a noob out.

L/R. You need to take a look at you snare T/B, OH, and Room mic, and put them into the same polarity. At the snare hit, all the wav's should be going either up, or all down initially. I mic my kits in such a way that I can time align the snare without causing too many adverse phase relationships, and I put the room mics as close to in phase behind the initial snare hit a few milliseconds or so. I though that is what you did per Greg_L. Maybe I misunderstood?


You're not fooling me with the whole Noob thing either! Recording is great! I am REALLY surprised nobody could hear that though. It was driving me crazy, I just couldn't tell for sure what I was hearing.......

Edit - and what is freakishly amazing is the ACDC track was aligned by EAR. Look how close it is aligned. Amazing!

 

[XLR]

Here is a snare hit from "Shoot To Thrill" by AC/DC -

Here is a snare hit from "Lady Policeman" -

See how the hit is out of time, and of opposite polarity?

Interesting to me, as I always adjust using this type of visual waveform alignment when using multiple pairs of mic's on guitar. Time alignment for mic's at different distances is critical IMO. Easier with guitar, I think. Crap... glad I'm not a drummer is all I can say.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NL5 again."

 

[NL5]

Interesting to me, as I always adjust using this type of visual waveform alignment when using multiple pairs of mic's on guitar. Time alignment for mic's at different distances is critical IMO. Easier with guitar, I think. Crap... glad I'm not a drummer is all I can say.

One of the big problems with drums is that the polarity works opposite from standard logic. When you hit a guitar string, the wave form is percussive first. On a drum, it actually "Sucks" first on the top or front of a drum, but on the back or bottom is percussive. Keeping track of all the mics and their polarity can be a challenge. Luckily, with a DAW it's easy to check that they are all correct.

One thing I did learn this weekend at a pro workshop was that sometimes out of phase can sound better in a mix. We are doing a song that the snare was driving me insane. It had 3 mics on it, and she started hitting the polarity reverse on the different channels till it just "sat" in the mix better. Quite surprising to me initially.....