Heaviness=muddiness. grr.

N

Newbie dude

New member
It seems I can't get a heavy, strong, firm, loud, brutal wall of guitars without sounding like muddy shit. I reduce the amount of takes, it sounds too thin, i increase the amount of takes, its heavier but jumbled. When I try to eq it to sound less muddy, it just ends up sounding weak. Anyone have some tips/advice/ideas?
 
Yes. You need to work on getting a better guitar tone ... either by tweaking the settings of your amp, or by using a different amp altogether if your current one isn't cutting it.

Most often, what you might think sounds good to you when practicing ... isn't going to sound the same when tracked, so you also need to learn and to understand what a good guitar tone truly sounds like, and how a particular tone is going to sound when tracked and stacked in the context of a mix.

.
 
Newbie dude said:
It seems I can't get a heavy, strong, firm, loud, brutal wall of guitars without sounding like muddy shit. I reduce the amount of takes, it sounds too thin, i increase the amount of takes, its heavier but jumbled. When I try to eq it to sound less muddy, it just ends up sounding weak. Anyone have some tips/advice/ideas?
Click to expand...

a bit crusher can help with the high end a bit, and give you enough power to riip people's faces off. An audio skin graft? cool!

I would say for a nice thick guitar wall, 4 tracks has been good to me. MAYBE 5 with one in center if there are no vocals, but ususally 4. Try saturating the fuck out of them with some sort of a saturation plugin. I'd recommend PSP vintage warmer or T-Racks, or even better both of them in the chain. It can also be the other instrumentation that's thinning things out, sometimes other instruments can make a guitar sound heavier than that actual guitar. It could also be a matter of changing up the voicing of the chords on different layers, or of the accompaniment. If you show me some examples, I might be able to help you figure out how to get them more brutal, that's something I think I've got down reasonably well. my email address is tmortim@gmail.com
 
not for what he's going for. I'm asuming he's talking about metal or something of that manner, it should be VERY distorted, and VERY saturated, almost to the point of insanity. How you control your compressors will actually fix some of the clarity when you're working with really heavy music.
 
TerraMortim said:
not for what he's going for. I'm asuming he's talking about metal or something of that manner, it should be VERY distorted, and VERY saturated, almost to the point of insanity. How you control your compressors will actually fix some of the clarity when you're working with really heavy music.
Click to expand...
This is exactly the opposite of what it takes. I do metal almost exclusively.
 
TerraMortim said:
a bit crusher can help with the high end a bit, and give you enough power to riip people's faces off. An audio skin graft? cool!

I would say for a nice thick guitar wall, 4 tracks has been good to me. MAYBE 5 with one in center if there are no vocals, but ususally 4. Try saturating the fuck out of them with some sort of a saturation plugin. I'd recommend PSP vintage warmer or T-Racks, or even better both of them in the chain. It can also be the other instrumentation that's thinning things out, sometimes other instruments can make a guitar sound heavier than that actual guitar. It could also be a matter of changing up the voicing of the chords on different layers, or of the accompaniment. If you show me some examples, I might be able to help you figure out how to get them more brutal, that's something I think I've got down reasonably well. my email address is tmortim@gmail.com
Click to expand...
TerraMortim said:
not for what he's going for. I'm asuming he's talking about metal or something of that manner, it should be VERY distorted, and VERY saturated, almost to the point of insanity. How you control your compressors will actually fix some of the clarity when you're working with really heavy music.
Click to expand...

Clips... Clips...
 
Newbie dude said:
It seems I can't get a heavy, strong, firm, loud, brutal wall of guitars without sounding like muddy shit...
Click to expand...

muddy shit... :eek:

several things I would deal with in this order, but all have a significant affect

mic placement and mic (can't stress this enough... mic first so you can dial the tone based on what the mic hears and not what you hear in the room)

amp settings (sufficient gain but not too much. dial this after mic placement)

speaker

pickups

List your PUP, Amp, Speaker and mic
 
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clips clip okay *shudder* here goes. lol don't be too rough on me..

first on the tour of horrors

www.myspace.com/noizefloor .. this is an ambient project of mine. it's hard to really enjoy the songs as much on the myspace environment all split up, as they're written to be a constantly evolving piece of music through the whole album, also the lovely myspace mp3 "sound" ECCCHH! The stuff on there is pretty old material, a few years old...I'll actually be updating it with some new tracks when I get some time. plus the mixes were originally done in 5.1 surround, so it looses a ilttle bit of depth this way (or maybe it's cause I'm just used to hearing the 5.1 version..who knows)

next on the walk of shame...

www.myspace.com/terramortim ... This is another project of mine, which is in the process of turning more into a "band". ack! that word made me cry NOOO! Disclaimer: THESE ARE DEMO MIXES!!!! I had to get some stuff up very quickly to meet some opportunities being thrown the way of the band. When I finish the entire album they will sound less...demo-ish. and yes, I know everything is distorted that's the sound I wanted...tough.

I have a ton more stuff I've done, but not really on hand..lots of industrial and death metal.. some EBM...some boring cliche music by numbers angsty powerman 5000 type stuff for tv shows...some scoring...probably nothing you'd recognize... did do one thing for MTV, not sure what show they put it in, and am frankly afraid to find out, *sigh* guess I'll have to find out in order to pick up the royalty checks...please don't let it be reality tv...nooo!

So yeah, rotten tomatos are for sale in the foyer, only 10 per person please. *ducks*

oh just a quick not to farview. yes I know you do metal, metal is a broad genre now. You don't mix grind the same way you mix heavy metal, or thrash the same way you mix black metal (unless you want to go for something different). I think I remember you being prominantly doing the heavy metal genre, which from what I've heard of it, yeah I see totally what your saying. I'm assuming from the words he was using to describe the guitars (brutal and what not) that he might be talking about something like death metal. Take a listen to some stuff like Dying Fetus, Misery Index, Nile (maybe not as much..can't exactly remember their guitar sound), Krisiun... and especially some of that swedish melodic death metal. The guitars are really saturated and distorted. The clarity in that type of mixing, I find comes more in the other processing like compressors, letting them pump in the way that works with the groove, adding to the brutality of the riffs. IF you take some distortion down with some of those recordings, it just doesn't have the right slam to it, and starts to sound really unmixed and blurry (there's only so much you can do when there are that many notes played by that many people at the same time at a really fast tempo.) So yeah, you're right, but in that style of mixing which I figure he was talking about, not so much.
 
TerraMortim said:
clips clip okay *shudder* here goes. lol don't be too rough on me..

first on the tour of horrors

www.myspace.com/noizefloor .. this is an ambient project of mine. it's hard to really enjoy the songs as much on the myspace environment all split up, as they're written to be a constantly evolving piece of music through the whole album, also the lovely myspace mp3 "sound" ECCCHH! The stuff on there is pretty old material, a few years old...I'll actually be updating it with some new tracks when I get some time. plus the mixes were originally done in 5.1 surround, so it looses a ilttle bit of depth this way (or maybe it's cause I'm just used to hearing the 5.1 version..who knows)

next on the walk of shame...

www.myspace.com/terramortim ... This is another project of mine, which is in the process of turning more into a "band". ack! that word made me cry NOOO! Disclaimer: THESE ARE DEMO MIXES!!!! I had to get some stuff up very quickly to meet some opportunities being thrown the way of the band. When I finish the entire album they will sound less...demo-ish. and yes, I know everything is distorted that's the sound I wanted...tough.

I have a ton more stuff I've done, but not really on hand..lots of industrial and death metal.. some EBM...some boring cliche music by numbers angsty powerman 5000 type stuff for tv shows...some scoring...probably nothing you'd recognize... did do one thing for MTV, not sure what show they put it in, and am frankly afraid to find out, *sigh* guess I'll have to find out in order to pick up the royalty checks...please don't let it be reality tv...nooo!

So yeah, rotten tomatos are for sale in the foyer, only 10 per person please. *ducks*

oh just a quick not to farview. yes I know you do metal, metal is a broad genre now. You don't mix grind the same way you mix heavy metal, or thrash the same way you mix black metal (unless you want to go for something different). I think I remember you being prominantly doing the heavy metal genre, which from what I've heard of it, yeah I see totally what your saying. I'm assuming from the words he was using to describe the guitars (brutal and what not) that he might be talking about something like death metal. Take a listen to some stuff like Dying Fetus, Misery Index, Nile (maybe not as much..can't exactly remember their guitar sound), Krisiun... and especially some of that swedish melodic death metal. The guitars are really saturated and distorted. The clarity in that type of mixing, I find comes more in the other processing like compressors, letting them pump in the way that works with the groove, adding to the brutality of the riffs. IF you take some distortion down with some of those recordings, it just doesn't have the right slam to it, and starts to sound really unmixed and blurry (there's only so much you can do when there are that many notes played by that many people at the same time at a really fast tempo.) So yeah, you're right, but in that style of mixing which I figure he was talking about, not so much.
Click to expand...

The guitars arent loud enough in "What I want"
They sound a bit fake. Did you use a real amp for this?

Eck
 
TerraMortim said:
clips clip okay *shudder* here goes. lol don't be too rough on me...
Click to expand...
I didn't listen to all of each, but I didn't find any heavy guitars that I could hang my hat on. sorry, but I'm not into long intros of ambiance.
 
TerraMortim said:
...from the words he was using to describe the guitars (brutal and what not) that he might be talking about something like death metal....The guitars are really saturated and distorted.
Click to expand...
I don't want to put words in xfinsterx's or Farview's mouths, but I think maybe what they were referring to was the fact that what sounds heavily distorted live and what sound heavily distorted recorded are two different things. Often times "enough" distortion as it sounds live in the room winds up being too much distortion when played back from tape or disc. That's why it happens so often when you get those guitarists who care more about their "sound" than their playing skill, that you gotta feed them a seperate headphone cue mix with more distortion than what winds up sticking to disc.

Besides, what do you care? If the world is nothing but a dying joke, it doesn't much matter, does it? ;)

G.
 
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Man, I hear ya.

..my approach is direct-in througha Tonelab, a little distortion layered a couple of times, too lazy for more.
Best I've got is rock-ish. :o

If I distort, I have to loose the bottom, or it gets muddy...


If I wasn't lazy, I'd try to record the "bottom-heavy" and "distorted" in separate takes???


...you know a track or two of thick low-end, and after that some screaming distortion?... bet you did huh...

..and of course, there are the bassists to add heaviness??? :D
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
...Often times "enough" distortion as it sounds live in the room winds up being too much distortion when played back from tape or disc.
Click to expand...
I respectfully have a totally different opinion on this. I seldom reduce the gain to record, but I often do adjust the amp's EQ with the mic in place. the trick is getting the mic in the right location and tweaking the EQ a bit. but reducing the gain as a rule-of-thumb, nada. other instruments don't have this problem... so why does close micing heavy gtr tones. one won't instruct the trumpet player, sorry please don't blow so hard :D or the pianist, softer please. one works with/around the sound as delivered. same here. my examples are probably pretty lame. :(
 
TerraMortim said:
clips clip okay *shudder* here goes. lol don't be too rough on me..

first on the tour of horrors

www.myspace.com/noizefloor .. this is an ambient project of mine. it's hard to really enjoy the songs as much on the myspace environment all split up, as they're written to be a constantly evolving piece of music through the whole album, also the lovely myspace mp3 "sound" ECCCHH! The stuff on there is pretty old material, a few years old...I'll actually be updating it with some new tracks when I get some time. plus the mixes were originally done in 5.1 surround, so it looses a ilttle bit of depth this way (or maybe it's cause I'm just used to hearing the 5.1 version..who knows)

next on the walk of shame...

www.myspace.com/terramortim ... This is another project of mine, which is in the process of turning more into a "band". ack! that word made me cry NOOO! Disclaimer: THESE ARE DEMO MIXES!!!! I had to get some stuff up very quickly to meet some opportunities being thrown the way of the band. When I finish the entire album they will sound less...demo-ish. and yes, I know everything is distorted that's the sound I wanted...tough.

I have a ton more stuff I've done, but not really on hand..lots of industrial and death metal.. some EBM...some boring cliche music by numbers angsty powerman 5000 type stuff for tv shows...some scoring...probably nothing you'd recognize... did do one thing for MTV, not sure what show they put it in, and am frankly afraid to find out, *sigh* guess I'll have to find out in order to pick up the royalty checks...please don't let it be reality tv...nooo!

So yeah, rotten tomatos are for sale in the foyer, only 10 per person please. *ducks*

oh just a quick not to farview. yes I know you do metal, metal is a broad genre now. You don't mix grind the same way you mix heavy metal, or thrash the same way you mix black metal (unless you want to go for something different). I think I remember you being prominantly doing the heavy metal genre, which from what I've heard of it, yeah I see totally what your saying. I'm assuming from the words he was using to describe the guitars (brutal and what not) that he might be talking about something like death metal. Take a listen to some stuff like Dying Fetus, Misery Index, Nile (maybe not as much..can't exactly remember their guitar sound), Krisiun... and especially some of that swedish melodic death metal. The guitars are really saturated and distorted. The clarity in that type of mixing, I find comes more in the other processing like compressors, letting them pump in the way that works with the groove, adding to the brutality of the riffs. IF you take some distortion down with some of those recordings, it just doesn't have the right slam to it, and starts to sound really unmixed and blurry (there's only so much you can do when there are that many notes played by that many people at the same time at a really fast tempo.) So yeah, you're right, but in that style of mixing which I figure he was talking about, not so much.
Click to expand...


I don't hear any huge wall of guitars in there. Lots of synth shit. The advice given is correct. Less gain/more mids than normally used.
 
Sonixx said:
other instruments don't have this problem... so why does close micing heavy gtr tones. one won't instruct the trumpet player, sorry please don't blow so hard :D or the pianist, softer please. one works with/around the sound as delivered. same here. my examples are probably pretty lame. :(
Click to expand...
There's three main differences IMHO:

First is that trumpets and pianos and the like are rarely run through amplifiers and distortion pedals.

Second is that - wth the exception of the occasional brass section - pianos, saxes, etc. are rarely used doubled, tripled, or quadrupled in a wall of sound type of technique.

Third - and this is a big one - it's the thrasher guitarists who are more concerned abut tone than their mother's own eyes that are more of the problem than the actual recording is. They just don't get that all things - including trumpers and pianos - sound different on tape or disc than they do live, and that sometimes the engineer has to do something that works one way in the studio in order to get it to work another way on the recording.

If you wanted to use that "record the natural sound" argument, then why are the same ones who want that full gain distortion often the same ones who believe that the natural sound of a drum kit is insufficient, that instead it has to be artificially built from 324 different oddly-placed microphones?

Walls of sound are built out of individual blocks called tracks. If each track tries to be it's own wall there wont be room for the other building block tracks and you'll wind up with nothing but a pile of assorted rocks and mud.

G.
 
Sonixx said:
I respectfully have a totally different opinion on this. I seldom reduce the gain to record, but I often do adjust the amp's EQ with the mic in place. the trick is getting the mic in the right location and tweaking the EQ a bit. but reducing the gain as a rule-of-thumb, nada. other instruments don't have this problem... so why does close micing heavy gtr tones. one won't instruct the trumpet player, sorry please don't blow so hard :D or the pianist, softer please. one works with/around the sound as delivered. same here. my examples are probably pretty lame. :(
Click to expand...


Actually, now that you mention it, it really isn't that unusual to have to tone things down a bit in a recording environment. You're in a studio - not a club with poor amplification. You don't have to bash the cymbals or the hat so hard; the mics won't have trouble hearing them. And the harder you strum that accoustic, the less tone you're going to hear from the guitar, and the more pick on string noise you're going to get, and the thinner it's going to sound.

It's kind of like an actor who's used to theater (and playing to a large audience) having to tone things down should he/she make the switch to an afternoon soap or a dramatic movie. The camera is right in front of you; you don't have to make your actions and facial expressions so large.

But getting back to the whole guitar tone thing ... I think the whole "less gain" thing is just a rule of thumb to help compensate because some people just generally get carried away with it. Most people when they practice or play out really are using too much gain even for that setting, but they just don't know it. It's like a singer who will just generally tend to want too much reverb or effects on their voice ... as a general rule, guitar players just tend to crank the gain too high because they're having Slayer/Pantera fantasies in their head or something and they always want just a little too much.

The single most important thing ... is to learn what a good tone really sounds like. Some people know what a good tone is, but most people don't have a clue. I've had guys give me the old line; "but it sounds great coming out of the amp. Why doesn't it sound that way on a recording?" Then I'll have a listen to their tone coming out of the amp and just sort of scratch my head .... Is this guy serious? Does he really think that what's coming out of his amp is actually good? Because I'm listening to it, and it sounds like dog shit ... just like it does on the recording. Why can I hear that clear as day, while the person playing is just oblivious? It's about perspective and understanding the difference between good and bad tone.

.
 
let me rap up...

stating "Turn the Gain down" is like stating "Turn the EQ Knob"...

now back to the issue...

your track is muddy... these steps will ensure an improvement in your tracked tone without any generalizations and sacrifices

Required equipment...
Good Isolating Phones (not necessarily expensive)
Ability to Reamp
Adjustable Mic stand
Mic (e.g. 57, i5, e609S, ATM650, MD421)
Ability to play a recorded track and record at the same time

1. set yourself up so you can monitor the mic'd tone via Phones that you know. the Phones will need to be closed back and isolating. I use AKG K171, but there are others.

2. set the tone the way you like when playing live

3. have a DI Gtr track that you can play back into the amp so you can monitor while you move the mic.

4. adjust mic (in-out and left-right) do not under-estimate a fraction of an inch in mic position. spend the time necessary to get that tone. do not get in a hurry

5. now with the mic in place, adjust the amps EQ and gain :eek:

6. repeat steps 4 and 5 until you've gotten a good feel for this, and a much better recorded tone. I promise this will work 100% of the time.

Now with a much better tracked tone, any layering will be the Cat's Meow.
 
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