"Reel" Recording

K

KingstonRock

PC load letter?
I've been working strictly digital for the past 6 months and I've really done some great stuff. But the more I think about it the more I realize that if i ever want to do this, recording, for real, I'll have to learn the analog end.

I first saw this when a few weeks after buying a motu 24i, i realized that it was probably originally design for dumping a 24-track analog tape into a computer for digital editing. Then I started looking at some of the local studios and not so local studios, and realized EVERYONE tracks in analog.

How practical is it for someone in the home studio arena to move to a "real" analog studio? I've got the soundcard and all the digital editing i could need, but what i lack is, any type of analog recording device, plus i doubt an Allen and Heath 16:2dx could handle analog recording. Its got no tape returns, which i didnt even know existed until reading about the mackie d8b, and only 16 tracks. I never needed more than that at once with a digital setup. But I figure I would need at least 24 analog tracks per song.

I doubt im ready for a full fledged 2 inch 24-track device yet. But if I get a new board, I wanna go all the way with that, i dont wanna waste money on an in-between I'll dump in a few months.

Over the past 6 months I've built up a studio with a pretty nice setup off of profits from bands I've recorded, hr824s the motu 24i the allen and heath, sonar, and various mikes, rode, shure, okatava, akg, etc.

Does anyone think Im ready for this next step? And if so, what is there between a full out tape machine and a porta studio for me to learn on, and what kind of board would I need?

Eric
 
A lot of new people entering the home recording hobby/business, especially young people have no idea that tape even exists unless you put it in a VCR. They have no idea that most major and many minor studios still track on 1" and 2" honest-to-God analog equipment.

I think you're ready for the next step. This is where recording began (for the most part, if you don't count wax discs).

However, you may not be ready for two inch analog after you've priced the tape. Most HR people using analog stick with either half inch or inch format because of the price of the tape, the cost and maintenance of the equipment and it's ease of use.

In terms of cost, it is very practical right now for analog. It's a buyer's market as the price of analog equipment has fallen steadily over the past decade. I really don't know if it could get any lower than it is right now. PortaStudios are rock bottom and most semi- and pro analog gear is now within reach of most people. Even a 24 track analog machine has been advertised at $3900 with 40% head life left. The price of those heads is several thousand though. That's like buying a used LearJet 24 for $150,000 and discovering that it is 200 hours before hot section overhaul that runs about $50,000+ for each engine.

I am not new to analog recording. I've been using PortaStudios with great success for the last 17 years. But, it is a long way from producing anything more than a great quality demo. And many Porta's can produce excellent results no matter what the digital folks say about the cassette format. But it's so "hissy" and noisy... they say. Well yeah, duh, you're squeezing four or eight tracks on an 1/8th piece of tape running at 3-3/4IPS.

I have only recently moved to 1/2" analog and the difference is astounding to my ears. Right now I am still learning to use my equipment, but the learning curve is not nearly as steep as most of the digital offerings out there. Sound quality alone is not the only reason many of us prefer analog. Though it as a major factor.

We like knobs between our fingers, faders to push, plugs to re-patch and the like. Myself...I could never like or get used to using a computer to track, mix, or master on. Tried ProTools Free, hated it. If that is what digital recording is all about then they can keep it...until someone invents a digital console that I can't tell from an analog console that doesn't use a CRT.

You would definately have to upgrade your mixer. A two buss just won't hadle anything more than a four track machine and you'd only be able to record two tracks at a time depending upon how you set it up and what sort of in's and out's are on it. I'm using a four-buss and that's a stretch for an eight track machine. It is entirely usable, but an eight-buss would be ideal. It's good to have as many busses as you have tracks, but it isn't required, nor is it always practical.

For getting your feet wet I would recommend the TASCAM 38-8 eight track, TASCAM TSR-8 eight track, TASCAM MSR-16 16 track machine. There are good prices on some MS-16's and 80-8's too but they are large, heavy machines. Even the 38-8 weights over 60 lbs. Portability with these machines is not one of their strong points.

The first three use 1/2" tape. The TSR and MSR have built-in DBX NR. The 38-8 has to use outboard NR. To hear these machines for the first time would knock your socks off. You wouldn't believe you were listening to tape, except for the warmth and compression it provides.

You could get an entire setup for under a grand like I did. My mixer is an old dog and I have another on the way. It was great in it's time, but I don't care for it. It came with the 38-8 and two DBX NR units. The stuff is like new.

TSR's and MSR's run a little higher averaging $600-$1K for the deck alone., but you can still find good deals. Investigate, ask a lot of questions about the equipment and insist on photos that were'nt taken from half a mile away. Ask about the type of usage the machine has had. Smoking or Non-smoking isn't just for restaurants anymore either. Do all of the functions and buttons and switches work? Do all the meters work? Do the lamps light?

If you see a price that is too good to be true, it will be. Spend a little extra for a quality machine with a lot of life left in it.

Well this post turned out to a ALOT longer than I had intended. If you made it all the way this far, I'd say you are ready for an analog machine. Good luck to you.

Michael
 
WONDERFULL!!!!
I am also looking to add analog to my studio, and you post was more than helpfull... But i still have a couple questions.
Right now, it is too expensive for my to do all my tracking on analog machines, as bands I record will want more than 8 tracks. I really need to be able to synch an analog deck up to my computer-based digital somehow. Can I do this with MMC? And do all the units you described support this, or do i need add on cards or something? Its just really hard to find information on this stuff, because it isn't so cutting-edge.

Thanks a lot though... I was recording a punk rock band and the guitar player had a tube/digital efx amp and i went into a rather colorless mackie mixer into a digital computer.... And the guitars were really really harsh on that record and i never got them the way i wanted them... I think i really want some analog.
 
My appologies, but you're asking the wrong person about MMC and a computer.

All I know anything about is SMPTE time code. I know it will lock two of the mentioned machines together, but I don't know anything about interfacing it with a computer.

If you will need more than eight tracks, then look seriously at the MSR-16 1/2" deck. Track width is twice as narrow as an eight track 1/2", but from what I'm told they still sound great and it beats the hell out of a cassette deck. Which you couldn't get in 16 track anyway. You might want to think about 1" 16 track if you do, or will be doing this for a living. The MS-16 is a good choice, but as I said, they are heavy and bulky and higher cost all around.

But it does sound great.
 
Half Inch 16 Track...

I don't know about where you guys are, but when I was looking to upgrade from eight to 16 the $$$ of one inch machines was just too high in relationship to halfs....In the end I got the Fostex G-16 S (S = Dolby SA) which was brilliant, but then I made the move to GP-9 tape (calibration needed of course) and it KICKS!!!....If the price thing is the same where you are I'd reckomend noodleing 'round with that idea....
 
Hmmm... My guy at sam ash told me that i should be able to do it with MMC... but i don't know what all equipment is required to do that. I am not in a position to go strictly analog. Maybe to track strictly analog, then dump into digital... which might not be a bad idea just to start with. But I can't ditch my digital, for the editing capabilities and the plugins. Does anyone know a good webpage or resource of any kind that could give me a whole bunch of more basic info on this sort of thing, calibration, maintenance, synching, etc?? I'm a 19 year old kid, and have not had the andvantage of really "being there" for reel to reel players and the like. Thanks for your help.

And sorry for using the cursed "D-Word" in the analog forum... he he but i want the best of both worlds.
 
I too would definitely be interested in keeping my digital system, mainly for drum tracks, but i doubt i would need an interface as advanced as Dark Fader is suggesting. I became convinced I needed analog when I ran some pro quality mixes next to mine through my new hr824's : ). I and can tell you that acoustic guitar sound wasnt simply miking technique, even simple speech was astounding. Now I'm using an Rode NtK and that's not the week point. Its the recording medium, I only wish I would've started in analog!

Right now I'm looking at an allen and heath gl2200, simply because I know the company, this is just an example anyway. Now this board has somewhere between 16 and 24 tracks, and 12 busses, and direct outs on each channel. Is this the kind of board I would be looking for? Im not really sure what busses are, all I've ever needed with the computer was direct outs. I hate to ask you guys for a full out guide so do you know of any websites that explains the basics of analog?

Thanks,
Eric
 
I too am an analog guy........I still use my old 3340 and I buy only vinyl. That being said.....I can't afford a 16 or 24 track analog machine. So I bought a stand-alone digital recorder and treat it as if it were analog. I use an analog board and everything's connected and used the same way I used with my analog reel to reel. Works great for me as I still have knobs under my fingers but much cheaper. Just an idea.
 
A buss is a signal path that carries signals from different sources along its path ultimately ending up at an out. A stereo buss, a monitor buss, a tape output, and so forth...as opposed to a direct out that routes only one signal in a direct path out of the board.

If you have an eight-buss board and an eight track machine, you can route signal from any channel(s) to any track(s) without having to use direct outs if you wish.

If you have a four-buss board and an eight track machine you can only route four channels at a time to any of the eight tracks. That means you can only record four tracks at a time. Channel's 1 OR 5, 2 OR 6, 3 OR 7, 4 OR 8.

That's why it is important to have direct outs on a recording console with less busses than you have tape tracks. This allows you to record direct from the channel to the track.

You can use combinations too.

On four of your channels use direct outs and on the other four use the buss outs. That way you can still group up to four signals to the busses for recording on a particular selected track AND record all eight tracks at once.

The Allen & Heath console that you speak of is probably designed for a 16-24 track machine. For an eight track machine 12 busses is a little overkill, but you can always use the extra busses for other tasks. You can never have to many in's or out's on a recording console.

I became convinced I needed analog when I ran some pro quality mixes next to mine through my new hr824's : ). I and can tell you that acoustic guitar sound wasnt simply miking technique, even simple speech was astounding. Now I'm using an Rode NtK and that's not the week point. Its the recording medium, I only wish I would've started in analog!
Click to expand...

I try not to mention this TOO much, especially on the mic forum, but the only mic's I have ever used for recording are the Sennheiser MD-441U's. These things have been around since Christ was a corporal and it is one of the best, if not THE best dynamic mic ever made for vocal, guitar miking, piano, snare, hi-hat, percussion, etc. I've never used it as an overhead, so I don't know how it would do. The pattern is tight; supercarioid. And you will probably get a lot of arguments about it being the best dynamic. That is only my learned opinion. It IS hard to say that never having used another. Who said I was logical???

But I mention this because many microphones were designed and built before digital was ever thought of and the designers did not forsee the medium that many of their microphones would be used in. I do not know if digital changes the recorded sound of a mic, but I have NEVER heard anything better on tape from a dynamic than the MD-441U.

I don't know of anyone still making semi- and pro- eight and 16 track machines. Possibly Otari, MCI, Sony. The big boys are still making 24 track machines.

Harmony Central has an ad every now and then for an analog deck, and there are other retail web sites, but they are all overpriced on this type of gear.

E-bay has about the best selection there is for eight and sixteen track machines, and pleanty of mixers to choose from to go with them at prices that won't make you morgage your home or your first born.

Damn, I'm writing some long posts lately. :D
 
The long posts are helpful! I Understand the buss now, its kind of like a very flexible channel strip. Analog has a lot of new stuff to look at because in digital all this routing is done automatically, at least in my program, I know some programs have tried to replicate an analog system; and now it makes sense! I looked at otari, they are only making 2-tracks and 24-tracks. Sony's site doesn't have any pro gear on it, only walkmen and stereo systems. http://blevinsaudioexchange.com/ has MCI, ampex, Studer, sony, otari and tascam. Its so sad to think that they stopped making all of these machines, and that all of the machines sold on ebay say, "I'm upgrading to digital."
 
Pretty much, yeah. As I said in my other post some of the machines are too cheap. That head stack can run anywhere from $1000 to $3500 depending on the machine.

A good TSR-16 16-track with some life left on it ought to be around $800-$1000. I've seen some 80-8's and MS-16's go cheap, but I didn't know the condition except for the 80-8. That machine was only $550, but had some kind of spindle or hub problem if I remember correctly. It was a 1/2" machine.
 
Dark Fader, does your client really know how many tracks they need or only how many tracks they think they need?

You can always do a sub-mix from an eight channel mixer and track the drums in stereo from the sub-mixer. Eight tracks is enough to do a rock or country recording. Granted, your flexibility is somewhat limited for mix-down, but for what they are asking for they should be at the Plant on a 24-track machine to begin with.

There are quite a few gold and platinum albums that have been recorded on eight tracks and less.

Wanting and needing are two different things.
 
Yes. Good points. I come from the digital world, where you want a new track, you click a couple times and you got it. he he he of course i wan't that with analog too! ha ha ha. Well, i figured out how to do it, though, if people are curious. You need to buy a little sync box from JC cooper or tascam used to make one. It synchs it up with FSK, and i think maybe you can also do SMPTE with it intead, and you lose a track of analog, but what it does is it synchs up a midi sequencer to the tape. I'm not sure how that works with digital audio and stuff, but i still gotta read up on it on my computer end of it. I really don't like to make too many decisions while tracking though, like submixing etc... And with my setup, running analog then dumping to computer would make starting with midi stuff impossible i think. So... I think i can do what i really wanted to do in the first place with a tape machine and a synch box. Thanks for all your help though... I still am gonna need info about maintainging these puppies and everything else.
 
FSK uses a higher frequency to stripe a track than its forerunner TTL. It is much more stable. When you stripe your sync track try and keep your level at about -3dB if your machine is operating at -10dB levels.

A signal too low can make it hard for the slaved device to hear the signal, and if too high, can cause cross-talk problems on the tape. Turn off your NR too on the FSK track.

As a side note, I'm going to be opening my home to potential customers for recording demo's in the near future. Being totally analog, I will probably find it harder to attract customers than if I were operating digitally. At least for the younger musicians.

As soon as I can afford it I will be mixing down to a TASCAM CD-RW700. At least they'll have something to pop in the CD player on the way home.
 
Does Tracking to analog and then dumping to a computer still sound as good? Or is all that analog digital conversion bad? I was hoping to wait until my final mix before going digital for mastering through a high end two channel converter.

I wrote a reply a few hours ago, but it didn't appear, about tom lord-alge and how he has all of his tracks transferred to some sony digital format. That's his favorite supposedly, he mixes with that, to prevent sound degredation. ONly tracking is done in analog by another engineer. This may work well if I need more than 8 or 16 tracks, depending on which I buy.

Also, I'm looking at the soundcraft ghost boards, they can be synced to a tape machine and used as a remote control is says which seems like a cool feature. Does anyone know how good these boards are? I've heard good things in about them in the digital arena but maybe its different in analog.
 
I was just thinking about "punching in," Say a vocalist messes up one phrase on an othre wise pristine take. Can I punch in right after his last phrase and "punch out," I guess, once he completes the phrase he is resinging, and simply overwrite the old phrase?

Also, the soundcraft ghost has automation as far as mutes. would I be able to press record automation and then as the track plays hit mute and then next time I play back the track it'll automatically mute?

Some basic questions that used to be even more basic in digital!
 
KingstonRock I'm afraid I can't answer that having never done it.

I know that a lot of analog recordings of the past have been remastered or digitally transfered to CD.

On another board I stated that there were things I was hearing on the CD copy that were not there on the roriginal album. I was told that they were always there on the master tape, but the fidelity of the digital mastering process made it audible.

He's probably having then transfered to a two-track Sony digital mastering deck. I couldn't say for sure though.

Don't know anything about the Soundcraft boards but for what I hear. They say they're top notch consoles.

I ggotta go to bed. I'm having a heck of a time typing this out tonight. See ya tomorrow.
 
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