Choice of two tape machines...

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Poulsbo Slim

New member
I'm hoping some of you knowledgeable folks can help me with this. My band is going to record in one of two studios soon. Studio A has a Studer A800 and Studio B has an Ampex ATR-124. While I know equipment isn't everything, in fact it's not nearly as important as who is running it, we're having a hard time choosing which studio, and the machine we'll record to might be a deciding factor. Which would you choose? Since I know every machine has its own sound, it might help to know our band is sort of indie-folk and upbeat. Acoustic guitar, drums, upright, banjo, trumpet, organ, vibraphone, and lots of vocals very prominent. Any suggestions/opinions/preferences? Thanks!
 
Both machines represent 1980 state of the art 24 track performance and it would be splitting hairs to choose one or the other as both are very capable decks. You guys would therefore be far more prudent to pick the studio which has the overall facilities and most especially, the best creative/comfort vibe to it so that while you're in there, you're feeling creative and comfortable with the studio and confident in the staff that's running it so that you get your best possible results from the experience.

If you have some web links to the studios themselves, we might be able to give you a more definitive answer as to which one looks to be the better facility.

Cheers! :)
 
Everything else being equal, I'd go with the Studer. The ATR 124 had the reputation in Los Angeles of being great when it worked properly. It's what some called a "nervous" machine.
 
Poulsbo Slim said:
Acoustic guitar, drums, upright, banjo, trumpet, organ, vibraphone, and lots of vocals very prominent....!
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A. Listen to some "similar bands" recordings that have been recorded in both studios (USING THOSE RECODERS, of course!!!!) and follow your instincts. ;)
B. If recordings are not available, then you simply never know.
Well, then ... take Ghost's advice :) ... and pick the studio with bigger and softer leather sofas and where coffee tastes better :p , meaning the one where it seems you may feel better working out your best as a band.

(btw, in both cases "A" and "B" different members of the band may have different opinions ...heh heh ) :drunk:
 
Based on what some others have said about Studer machines and ATR-100 machines I might expect the Studer to be more "transparent" and the Ampex to have a little more "personality", but that is not from any direct experience of my own. Chances are they are both going to sound very similar and like Ghost said they are both top-notch machines.

I'm an Ampex fan so that would be my choice but that is totally subjective and should have nothing to do with your decision...that's just emotional. I say pick the studio that's closer to the bathroom and the beverage fridge.
 
Thanks guys! So many good responses. I hate to throw a wrench in there after I already asked you once, but turns out that Studio A's Studer is on the fritz. Their backup machines are two Otari MTR-90s. So, now it's between an Ampex ATR-124 and an Otari MTR-90. I'll definitely heed your advices and I think we'll go with the studio that feels the most fun/comfortable/real, but out of curiosity would this still be splitting hairs or are we now talking about a big difference?
 
Poulsbo Slim said:
Thanks guys! So many good responses. I hate to throw a wrench in there after I already asked you once, but turns out that Studio A's Studer is on the fritz. Their backup machines are two Otari MTR-90s. So, now it's between an Ampex ATR-124 and an Otari MTR-90. I'll definitely heed your advices and I think we'll go with the studio that feels the most fun/comfortable/real, but out of curiosity would this still be splitting hairs or are we now talking about a big difference?
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Yup, still splitting hairs. The Otari's are about 10 years newer then the other decks and while the Otari was a cheaper machine, that's mostly due to it being built in Japan instead of Switzerland or the States.

Go with the best overall studio and don't get hung up on one machine being the be all and end all of the sound you'll get.

Also, I asked you for some links to the studios your considering. You want to produce those so that we can actually see what you're looking at facility-wise?

Cheers! :)
 
Type Foundry has an MM-1000...n/f at this time but the owner and I have talked about working together to get it going. Looks like a neat facility.
 
sweetbeats said:
Type Foundry ... Looks like a neat facility.
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Yeah, it does! Decent console and good selection of outboard pres, comps and verbs, though there is a bunch medium grade filler gear in there...not a problem though. The Mic selection is also good! The place seems to have a pretty decent vibe to it though it's definitely not a place that was build for sound, more a space adapted for it as we're not seeing giant height in the ceiling of the main live room. They're not actually showing much of the ceiling at all other then some exposed beams so hard to say if the sound of the room dry or mic'ed for its own ambiance is worth a shit...it probably isn't and you'd be relying on the digital reverbs to fill in the blanks on that. Also looking at the day rates without their engineering staff, you'd want to be mindful of how much its going to cost once you factor in everything including tape.

Regarding the other studio without a website; how does it compare to The Foundry, gear wise, space-wise, cost wise? Can you give us some basic info, thoughts/feelings on that?

Cheers! :)
 
They're two completely different kinds of studios and I like them both for their own vibe. Type Foundry feels like a place to go get work done. I personally love old industrial big buildings because of that feel. Their main room sounds pretty huge and not in a "hall" sort of way- in a big wide warehouse room sort of way. They don't really have more rooms dedicated to tracking except that main room and another decent sized, decent sounding room, but I've heard people say they've used their other rooms (kitchen, lounge, etc.) also. Sort of a downside to me, because we have a lot of players in our band. They also don't have any room that is totally dead- no tiny, foam padded, sound sucked chamber for vocals and such. What do you call those things? The other studio has three rooms for tracking, the biggest one being about 35'X25' and peaked ceiling, the other two are an iso chamber (is that what you call it?) and an 8'X15' with some guitar amps. It's what I would call the sickest home-recording studio I've ever seen. The guy bought a really big house and transformed the front half and garage into a studio. Everything is thought out very well and done in his own style (for example, he's using an asortment of viny, bushy wall-climing plants in one corner as a bass trap:) ). He hired some master carpenters to execute a lot of very creative sound-helping features in the tracking rooms. Really nice pres, comps (similar to Type Foundry), some cool vintage Abbey Road mics, a vintage Neve console, and he has Clasp set up with his Ampex atr-124. The atmosphere is REALLY comfortable and expensive feeling- plush everything, insence burning, everything has a brand new but very stylish kind of feeling there. It's a little more expensive than Type Foundry, and one big concern is the combo of being pretty expensive for us and also REALLY chill and comfortable. If you have any advice, especially what you think is the most important aspect of a studio, I'm all ears. I think they're both really nice and for different reasons.
 
Poulsbo Slim said:
Oh really? So Clasp is not a good thing?
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CLASP isn't a "thing".

CLASP setup simply is NOT a setup for someone who is looking for a studio to get his/here band recorded on analog multi-track tape machine.
I assume that that's what you were looking for. Or am I wrong?

If you are looking forward to a "type" of production (or say - if you don't mind such scenario) where the multi-track recording "session" ends in a DAW, then all those sensual wonders :o about details and differences between Ampex, Studer and Otari are nothing more than a puffy substence of a comical nature :drunk:
By saying so, I am not just implying to properties of the recording on tape machine and mixing down from there, but rather to the ENTIRE production process and approaches (performance included!!!!) from start to finish.
 
It's not a thing? I thought it was a thing that costs around 7.5k. I get what you're saying about performances and overall production process and approaches being different when using a DAW. I definitely prefer working on my 388 at home rather than on a laptop, and not just for tracking but for the overall experience of it. But what about the actual sound makes you say it's mere
puffy substence of a comical nature
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? Since, in a digital age, virtually all analogue goes digital eventually, why is it worse to go there sooner than later? Explain to me exactly why CLASP makes a tape machine a thing of comedy to you. Is it also comical to track, mix down, and master all in analogue and then have all your fans listen to your music on ipods and cds?
 
Poulsbo Slim said:
Oh really? So Clasp is not a good thing?
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It can be if you're wanting a DAW like approach to putting your music together as the Clasp system basically uses the 24 track as an in-line filter while you are doing the initial tracking and after that, everything is digital for the remainder of the project. That might be cool if you were doing the type of music that needed the benefits of a DAW system for cutting and pasting parts together but for a well rehearsed band, it's probably not really needed. The studio as you described it sounds pretty cool and uber modern and if you're into that sort of thing in terms of making you guys feel comfortable and creative, it might be OK for you. The Foundry by comparison will give you a more authentic analog experience and facility shortcomings aside, if you guys are well rehearsed, you might just come away with a more organic sounding record.

So quick summation; If you guys have your shit together as a band, go with the Foundry. If not, then go to the other place.

Cheers! :)
 
As others have said....

I would talk to each of the engineers, ask them about the condition of their decks...discuss with them your goals...consider the space/rooms each has to offer and the rest of the gear...and also the overall vibe...
...and not really worry too much about just the two tape decks and which to pick...the Studer or the ATR.

If both of the decks are in good operational condition...I doubt their individual impact will be as noticeable on the final production as will all the other things I mentioned above.

You might pick the studio with the slightly "better" deck...and then all the other things might not be as good...and you could still end up with a worse production than had you gone to the studio with the second choice deck.
 
Poulsbo Slim said:
in a digital age, virtually all analogue goes digital eventually, why is it worse to go there sooner than later? Explain to me exactly why CLASP makes a tape machine a thing of comedy to you. Is it also comical to track, mix down, and master all in analogue and then have all your fans listen to your music on ipods and cds?
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First of all, I don't hold the opinion that Clasp is a joke so I can't answer that aspect of your question.

About the virtues of staying analog as far as possible up the chain, it will basically give you the opportunity to make use of those nice mixers and processors all the way through the tracking and mixdown and you also have the benefit of having not to worry about going over zero db and running out of cleans ones and zeros to work with. Analog distorts gracefully and allows you to have as much natural dynamics as your heart desires. As well, if you have an analog master tape, you can always adapt it to any future format down the road. When you record digitally, you're locked into those bits forever. And as we've seen over the years, digital formats are always changing.

With regard to what the masses use to listen to music on, mostly horrid mp3's, that's their problem, not yours. Go back 50 years in time and most teenyboppers with listening to music on AM pocket transistor radios. That didn't deter studios and musicians from trying to record the very best sounding recording they could, did it? Nope!

Cheers! :)
 
Oh...if anyone needs it...I have a quarter you can use.

It has George Washington's head on one side...and an eagle on the tail side....you then flip it...and call it. ;)

Works every time! :D
 
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