(possibly) subjective acoustic question

nate_dennis

nate_dennis

Well-known member
I know that this question will be somewhat subjective, and I don't even know if it's a realistic scenario. But here we go . . . .

If we used a purely acoustic guitar with no cutaway as a baseline; would the same guitar with electronics installed sound different? What about if the same model was made with a cutaway. Would either of these affect the tone assuming that that the "modifications" were made at the manufactureres level? I hope this makes sense; I'm just trying to learn as much as possible about guitars. Thank you for your time.


-Nate
 
Personally, I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference, but I'm sure some people here will have more cultured ears than me.
 
I doubt that most people could detect the change in tone caused by the mere presence of electronics on an acoustic guitar. The piezo pickup underneath the saddle might have some very subtle affect on how the strings transfer vibration to the body, but I have a hard time believing it would be detectable. And the preamp sitting inside the guitar body will change some of the resonances, but I highly doubt that most people on earth could detect the difference.

Now a cutaway makes a change to the shape of the inside of an acoustic guitar. I'm sure that has to make some sort of difference in the resonances inside the body, and it takes away a little bit of the soundboard on top of the guitar. That would have to make some sort of difference, but again I have a feeling that it would be negligible and not detectable to any but the most discerning ear.

I'm curious to hear what the guitar builders around here have to say. My money is on the "it won't make a noticable difference" side of the fence.
 
nate_dennis said:
I know that this question will be somewhat subjective, and I don't even know if it's a realistic scenario. But here we go . . . .

If we used a purely acoustic guitar with no cutaway as a baseline; would the same guitar with electronics installed sound different? What about if the same model was made with a cutaway. Would either of these affect the tone assuming that that the "modifications" were made at the manufactureres level? I hope this makes sense; I'm just trying to learn as much as possible about guitars. Thank you for your time.


-Nate
Click to expand...

It's one of those those maybe, maybe not situations. There is so much going on with the way any instrument works acoustically and acoustic guitars are among the most complex.

The cutaway thing, in my experience you would be unlikely to discern any difference if you could ever make the comparison in the first place.

The "electronics" thing. What electronics are you talking about? You would be more likely to notice a change with this one because you are locally changing the mass and stiffness in the area that they may be mounted and the way sound waves would propagate. If it's done properly though the difference would again be so small as to be unnoticeable in just about every listening experience. Depends on what system your using though.
 
Tadpui said:
I'm curious to hear what the guitar builders around here have to say. My money is on the "it won't make a noticable difference" side of the fence.
Click to expand...

Yeh,

The real deal is that everything you do to one part of an instrument effects everything else to a greater or lesser degree. The real deal is that it's virtually impossible to measure because you can't set up two identical test models side by side. Every guitar is unique and every buildi is unique.

Bottom line is that if it works it works. Within basic parameters that we know will give good results what we do is try and bring the best out of the materials we have in terms of response and tone. I loves me some musical acoustics but as a builder it only arms me with some understandings of why stuff does what it does and hopefully helps me maximise the potential of each piece of wood I use.
 
I can't imagine changing mass in either direction not making some difference in tone. Detectable? Who knows. You can almost simulate the effect by adding weight comparable to the electronics in the area you intend to mount them.

The cutaway changes cavity volume, right? Surely some tonal quality is effected.

Interesting stuff. I hate smart people. :)
 
I appreciate the information and feedback. I'm in the research stage of shopping for a new acoustic. I find myself discounting cutaways and A/E guitars because in my mind the the area cut out for the preamp/eq would alter the tone and the cutaway would decrease projection. The ironic thing is that my current guitar has both and I rather like it. SO I'm trying to figure out if my position (if onc could call it that) is based on anything other than asthetics (cutaway) and ignorance (electronics.) So, thanks again for the information and I look forward to learning more and more from all of you.


-nate
 
getuhgrip said:
I can't imagine changing mass in either direction not making some difference in tone. Detectable? Who knows. You can almost simulate the effect by adding weight comparable to the electronics in the area you intend to mount them.

The cutaway changes cavity volume, right? Surely some tonal quality is effected.

Interesting stuff. I hate smart people. :)
Click to expand...

Yeh it does and if you want a more nerdy expalanation the thing your changing the most when yo do that is the Helmholtz resonance of more specifically the A0 body resonances. They all have a factor on the sound of an instrument but like I said it's next to impossible to predict the outcome. Thats why I said in my opinion you won't notice a difference because that is my experience when making them.

Is there a difference? yes. Can you hear it? Probably not. Does it matter? No.;)
 
nate_dennis said:
I appreciate the information and feedback. I'm in the research stage of shopping for a new acoustic. I find myself discounting cutaways and A/E guitars because in my mind the the area cut out for the preamp/eq would alter the tone and the cutaway would decrease projection. The ironic thing is that my current guitar has both and I rather like it. SO I'm trying to figure out if my position (if onc could call it that) is based on anything other than asthetics (cutaway) and ignorance (electronics.) So, thanks again for the information and I look forward to learning more and more from all of you.


-nate
Click to expand...

I would just find the guitar that is right for you. Ignore the name and price tag as far as you can and hunt out the one that speaks to you.

The main reason I don't like then board eq and volume stuff is because they are often flakey and if it goes in a few years you stuck with it. Nothing to do with tone. I'd rather just use the amp or a pedal to eq.

Shut your eyes, open your ears and enjoy the proicess.;)
 
All this information is great! Thank you. I do have a few more questions. It's (kind of) important to note that the following question is asked more out of curiosity than on how heavily it will weigh on my decision which guitar to buy . . .

Ok, I know that a solid-top acoustic will sound/project better than a laminate top. How important is the side/back wood? For instance, though I haven't personally tried one, I have heard many Martin 000x1 guitars and they sound amazing to me in the recordings I have heard. Here are the specs . . .

MODEL 000X1
CONSTRUCTION: Mortise/Tenon Neck Joint
BODY SIZE: 000-14 Fret
TOP: Solid Sitka Spruce
ROSETTE: Multiple Black/White Boltaron with Red Fiber
TOP BRACING PATTERN: A-Frame ''X-1''
TOP BRACES: Solid Spruce 5/16''
BACK MATERIAL: Mahogany Pattern HPL Textured Finish
BACK PURFLING: none
SIDE MATERIAL: Mahogany Pattern HPL Textured Finish

How do these things affect the guitar from a technical perspective? How will they affect the guitars value down the line?

I'm sorry if my question is stupid, I'll get there.

-Thanks.
 
Assuming all things are equal, which as I explained earlier, you never really can The back and sides are far less important to the quality of the tone than a decent spruce top. Can I tell a difference? Yes.

To me the differences between timBers used for the back and sides is one of subtlety. You can find fine sounding guitars made with many different timbers and I won't go into the general observations about them because again that is primarily preference. If you have a specific tone you are after I could point in the direction of a combination of timbers that would increase your chances of finding it. You may well find that tone in a guitar with other timbers though so keep an open minded approach.

As to the question of laminated back and sides. To my ears most are less complex in the tonal range and dynamic they can produce and often sound a little "boxy" in comparison. That is a sweeping generalisation though and you can find lovely guitars in all styles and types. Keep looking and the one that is right for you will eventually fall into your lap.

A brief explanation of why I believe laminated back and sides are less subtle or maybe homogenised is a better word. Everything on an acoustic guitar in some way colours the sound of the instrument in some way. They do that by effecting the way the string passes it's energy into the top via the bridge and then subsequently to the top and out into the air. The part that gives an acoustic guitar it's unique tone is the range and mix of the upper partials or higher harmonics of that vibration The materials used to make a guitar impart those qualities as the strings energy is bounced around the instrument and it's constituent parts. The back and sides receive much of the energy that it reflects back to the top via the air cavity. As I already said, that air cavity or helmholtz resonance although important is less influential than some other major parts such as the top, bracing, bridge and bridge plate, etc.

The whole thing is one great big box of tricks though so although the theory is undoubtedly true and demonstrable. In practice it's really down to the uniqueness of each individual guitar which is both the beauty and the frustration in all this.
 
nate_dennis said:
. . .

MODEL 000X1
CONSTRUCTION: Mortise/Tenon Neck Joint
BODY SIZE: 000-14 Fret
TOP: Solid Sitka Spruce
ROSETTE: Multiple Black/White Boltaron with Red Fiber
TOP BRACING PATTERN: A-Frame ''X-1''
TOP BRACES: Solid Spruce 5/16''
BACK MATERIAL: Mahogany Pattern HPL Textured Finish
BACK PURFLING: none
SIDE MATERIAL: Mahogany Pattern HPL Textured Finish

How do these things affect the guitar from a technical perspective? How will they affect the guitars value down the line?

I'm sorry if my question is stupid, I'll get there.



-Thanks.
Click to expand...

On to the specifics here, I would ignore much of the tech spec as long as the guitar suits you it's fine. If you want a little on each.....

CONSTRUCTION: Mortise/Tenon Neck Joint - Pretty standard and the only other option would be something like Taylors bolt neck. I won't go there.;) In short don't worry about it.

BODY SIZE: 000-14 Fret - Body size makes a difference but as I've already said a few times only you can decided if thats better and more specifically if it's better for you. I like 000 style instruments others may prefer something else. There is no better or worse just different. You need to play a few and listen carefully to them.

TOP: Solid Sitka Spruce - Get a spruce top if you possibly can you'll appreciate the difference down the line. Most makers have aa preference for the type of spruce they use but Sitka is probably the most common spruce on US guitars and it's just fine.

ROSETTE: Multiple Black/White Boltaron with Red Fiber - Don't worry about this

TOP BRACING PATTERN: A-Frame ''X-1''
TOP BRACES: Solid Spruce 5/16'' Again those are standard Martin practice and many other brands and luthiers base their guitars on Martin style bracing. Don't worry about it. Rather post here if some guitar or maker is claiming some new revolutionary bracing pattern or material. Only then would I want to investigate it's credentials.

BACK MATERIAL: Mahogany Pattern HPL Textured Finish
BACK PURFLING: none
SIDE MATERIAL: Mahogany Pattern HPL Textured Finish - Dealt with that in the post above. Personally I would want some sort of back binding as it does serve a practical purpose. Purfling isn't important.
 
To the original question - I have never noticed a perceptible difference in sound between a guitar with or without electronics, and I have never noticed a difference that can't be attributed to other factors between a guitar with or without a cutaway. Add to this, every builder I know and respect will tell you that a cutaway makes no difference in the sound. I've known guys who disagree with me on electronics, but they can never explain to me what the difference is, why it happens, or how they got through the pickup install fast enough to actually still be able to remember what it sounded like without the pickup. (Your ability to perceive small differences in two sounds lasts MAYBE three minutes - and it is absolutely impossible to install any pickup I can think of that fast.)


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
One thing to bare in mind about the cutaway (people never believe me when I tell them it makes no difference) is WHERE you are removing wood. The most important part of the box is the top, and the area where the cutaway ends up is very heavily braced to avoid the guitars natural tendency to want to become an accordion. Because of the heavy bracing in this area, the top doesn't move much up there. Well, at all, really. Additionally, the volume of air removed is fairly small.

I thought you might like this poster, Muttley. :cool:


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 

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One builder's opinion

Tadpui said:
...I'm curious to hear what the guitar builders around here have to say. My money is on the "it won't make a noticable difference" side of the fence.
Click to expand...



Below is a quote from the FAQ on David Webber's website.

http://www.webberguitars.com/

"What effect does a cutaway have on the sound?

I have never noticed any dramatic difference between a cutaway or non cutaway version of otherwise similar guitars. A cutaway guitar should be chosen because you need it, want it, or the guitar you like has one. Otherwise its neither detrimental or advantageous."
 
I've read posts on this board over the years that have opined that a cutaway will decrease bass response in a minor way... as various people have already explained, it's sort of impossible to test anyway, as even if you get a cutaway and non-cutaway (strikes me that's not the 'proper' way to describe a normal uncut guitar!) of the same model and do side by side tests, they're still individual instruments that are going to have a level of variability in tone anyway, and drawing conclusions on a single test like this would be dangerous.

All that said, if a cutaway does decrease bass response a little, and you're recording the guitar, that may not be a bad thing as bass is often an issue.

On a side note, I've recently jammed a "feedback buster" in my soundhole as I'm going to be using this guitar live and loud soon, and it strikes me that, for some purposes, this might provide a useful recorded sound from a dreadnought guitar.... haven't actually tried that yet, though!

Luck!
 
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