Buyer Beware. More guitar products that don't work.

RawDepth

RawDepth

New member
Has anyone heard of the PrimeVibe guitar seasoning system? I'm sorry. Complete crapolla! Don't fall for it.

1. I don't believe it works and there is little to nothing anyone can say that will make me believe it works. (Much of my college studies included strength, physics, and behavior of materials.)
2. All this product will do is accelerate the delamination process of the glued wooden parts. If you want to shake your guitar to pieces just put it in a paint shaker, it will save you time.

EDIT: Just for the record, I am not a disgruntled customer. I have never bought this product and have no plans to do so. I am simply offering up my opinion to help enlighten the unapprised consumer.
 
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The theory behind this has been around for quite a while.

Studies were done on violins in the 80's in an attempt to pin down the supposed "holy grail" of the Stradivari instruments. It was proposed that playing the instruments could in and of itself accelerate the aging process. The initial studies, and some subsequent investigations have shown some merit and sound science and findings. It is possible to influence the aging process of some mechanical properties of timber with the use of sustained sound wave propagation. Does it make a difference, possibly? Can it be controlled, no? Would it have a positive effect on tone? That would be entirely subjective. Does it work on guitars? Not in my experience. Have a few snake oil experts tried to pick up on it? Yes, this is one of them.

If you want to discuss what aging properties it may influence I'd be happy to. Do some research on "timber creep" and internal impedance or "Q" which is the mysterious sounding value it has been given.

I'd leave this particular piece of kit well alone though, a cursory glance at the website demonstrates they know little about the theory or they are pouring on more snake oil to cover the inconclusive nature of it. They have been pushing this thing quite shamelessly on other boards for a few years now.

One last thing, It categorically will NOT accelerate the delamination of any glue line on your instrument..
 
If the theory was true, you could just put your guitar on a stand in front of your big-ass stereo speakers (I still have them!) and crank up the volume for a while.
I've never heard that a 'break in period' improved a guitar's sound.
 
mjbphotos said:
If the theory was true, you could just put your guitar on a stand in front of your big-ass stereo speakers (I still have them!) and crank up the volume for a while.
I've never heard that a 'break in period' improved a guitar's sound.
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People have, people do. People believe it works. Thats pretty much how the original investigations were don, in an enclosure subjecting violins to sustained periods of a sound wave at specified frequencies that related to the instruments fundamental resonance and other frequencies. Papers were published and claims were made. Little ever came of it apart from some empirical data and a bunch of ifs and maybes.

There is a lot of belief that guitars "open up" with time and quite a bit of evidence to suggest they do. These investigations were an attempt to accelerate that process.
 
muttley600 said:
People have, people do. People believe it works. Thats pretty much how the original investigations were don, in an enclosure subjecting violins to sustained periods of a sound wave at specified frequencies that related to the instruments fundamental resonance and other frequencies. Papers were published and claims were made. Little ever came of it apart from some empirical data and a bunch of ifs and maybes.

There is a lot of belief that guitars "open up" with time and quite a bit of evidence to suggest they do. These investigations were an attempt to accelerate that process.
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muttley600 said:
...It is possible to influence the aging process of some mechanical properties of timber with the use of sustained sound wave propagation...
Click to expand...

There may be some sliver of merit to the assumption that as an instrument ages its sound undergoes minor changes. It is known that wood has a tendency to dry out, lose its elasticity, (associated with fatigue,) and experience some degree of solidification on a molecular level. As the wood becomes more rigid over time, it is likely to transfer sound energy more efficiently, thus affecting its resonant tone.

Assuming conditions are perfect enough that it does undergo some physical changes quickly, we're talking changes of only minuscule amounts over the course of decades of time. These changes must be barely audible, let alone measurable. To attempt to accurately compare the nuances of an instrument from, say, 30 or 40 years ago to its nuances today is probably impossible. There are too many variables to A/B in identical environments, with identical equipment, while playing in an identical manner. This explains why there is no conclusive evidence that the theory holds water.

BUT, (and this is a big but,) to claim that by simply subjecting it to vibratory energy for a period of 24 hours will somehow duplicate the effects of long-term aging is absurd. Vibration (shaking the wood back and forth) will not dry out the wood and cannot accelerate solidification. Will it accelerate fatigue? Perhaps. Will it improve the sound over night? You tell me.
 
Comparing a Stradivarius, having a thin spruce top treated with potassium borate, sodium and potassium silicate, and vernice bianca, to say a Les Paul with a thick maple slab glued onto a thicker mahogany slab, drowned in sealer and lacquer, and played through a Big Muff π through a cranked Marshall is not doing it for me. Even Fender used to seal their guitar bodies in Fullerplast, so I ignore snake-oil salesmen who can hear a nitro finish as opposed to a poly finish. :yawn:
If I were tempted to try it on an acoustic guitar, at least this snake-oil is relatively inexpensive, so I don't feel like as big a fool when I lose my money. Thank your stars you aren't an audiophool;

OYAIDE R-1 20AMP WALL OUTLET (PLATINUM PALLADIUM) at Music Direct

or my favorite;

HiFi-Tuning Fuses - Large Supreme SLOW Blow T by Revolution Power

:listeningmusic:
 
I have observed fine classical guitars changing over time, including my own - sometimes for the better, sometimes not. A friend of mine has a Thomas Humphrey Millenia (they go for about $17K these days) and I used to listen to him play quite a bit. When he first got the guitar many of us agreed that it was among the finest sounding guitars we had ever heard. It did change and not for the better. When the guitar was 8 Months old it didn't sound as good as it did when it was brand new. While still an excellent instrument, it lost a certain roundness to it's tone.
 
ibleedburgundy said:
I have observed fine classical guitars changing over time, including my own - sometimes for the better, sometimes not. A friend of mine has a Thomas Humphrey Millenia (they go for about $17K these days) and I used to listen to him play quite a bit. When he first got the guitar many of us agreed that it was among the finest sounding guitars we had ever heard. It did change and not for the better. When the guitar was 8 Months old it didn't sound as good as it did when it was brand new. While still an excellent instrument, it lost a certain roundness to it's tone.
Click to expand...
Tell him to change strings
 
RawDepth said:
There may be some sliver of merit to the assumption that as an instrument ages its sound undergoes minor changes. It is known that wood has a tendency to dry out, lose its elasticity, (associated with fatigue,) and experience some degree of solidification on a molecular level. As the wood becomes more rigid over time, it is likely to transfer sound energy more efficiently, thus affecting its resonant tone.

Assuming conditions are perfect enough that it does undergo some physical changes quickly, we're talking changes of only minuscule amounts over the course of decades of time. These changes must be barely audible, let alone measurable. To attempt to accurately compare the nuances of an instrument from, say, 30 or 40 years ago to its nuances today is probably impossible. There are too many variables to A/B in identical environments, with identical equipment, while playing in an identical manner. This explains why there is no conclusive evidence that the theory holds water.

BUT, (and this is a big but,) to claim that by simply subjecting it to vibratory energy for a period of 24 hours will somehow duplicate the effects of long-term aging is absurd. Vibration (shaking the wood back and forth) will not dry out the wood and cannot accelerate solidification. Will it accelerate fatigue? Perhaps. Will it improve the sound over night? You tell me.
Click to expand...

What is your point? Are you disagreeing with what I have posted? If yes, why? If not go back to the top and start over..
 
ranjam said:
Comparing a Stradivarius, having a thin spruce top treated with potassium borate, sodium and potassium silicate, and vernice bianca, to say a Les Paul with a thick maple slab glued onto a thicker mahogany slab, drowned in sealer and lacquer, and played through a Big Muff π through a cranked Marshall is not doing it for me. Even Fender used to seal their guitar bodies in Fullerplast, so I ignore snake-oil salesmen who can hear a nitro finish as opposed to a poly finish. :yawn:
If I were tempted to try it on an acoustic guitar, at least this snake-oil is relatively inexpensive, so I don't feel like as big a fool when I lose my money. Thank your stars you aren't an audiophool;

OYAIDE R-1 20AMP WALL OUTLET (PLATINUM PALLADIUM) at Music Direct

or my favorite;

HiFi-Tuning Fuses - Large Supreme SLOW Blow T by Revolution Power

:listeningmusic:
Click to expand...

You missed the daddy of them all in Monster Cables....:thumbs up:
 
ibleedburgundy said:
I have observed fine classical guitars changing over time, including my own - sometimes for the better, sometimes not. A friend of mine has a Thomas Humphrey Millenia (they go for about $17K these days) and I used to listen to him play quite a bit. When he first got the guitar many of us agreed that it was among the finest sounding guitars we had ever heard. It did change and not for the better. When the guitar was 8 Months old it didn't sound as good as it did when it was brand new. While still an excellent instrument, it lost a certain roundness to it's tone.
Click to expand...

Could be strings, could be the instrument "opening up", could be your ears, could be many things... Thats the whole point, none of this is predictable and as builders all we can do is use what factors we know work for us to put us in the ball park and the rest is in the detail. As far as studying and questioning musical acoustics, it is definitely better to have that knowledge and ignore it than it is to need it and not have it.
 
acidrock said:
If this really worked,they would be applying it to new instruments in the factory,end of story.
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True, it also takes quite a while. Wood does change in structure over time, noticeably creep and the structure of the lignin it takes years though. It normally results in a stiffer top and as a result more responsive. Not always though and some species of Spruce more than others. Virtually zero on Cedar. Personally I don't believe it is accelerated using this method but there is some evidence as yet inconclusive after nearly thirty years of academic research..
 
muttley600 said:
Could be strings, could be the instrument "opening up", could be your ears, could be many things... Thats the whole point, none of this is predictable and as builders all we can do is use what factors we know work for us to put us in the ball park and the rest is in the detail. As far as studying and questioning musical acoustics, it is definitely better to have that knowledge and ignore it than it is to need it and not have it.
Click to expand...

Definitiely not the strings. We all changed our strings once a week or more.
 
muttley600 said:
What is your point? Are you disagreeing with what I have posted? If yes, why? If not go back to the top and start over..
Click to expand...

My point is that you cannot accelerate the aging process with any silly vibration device such as the one mentioned in the first post. I was being careful not to dispute the fact that the sound of some acoustic instruments may change over time. No one seems to be able to prove that part either way, so there is no sense in arguing the point.
 
RawDepth said:
My point is that you cannot accelerate the aging process with any silly vibration device such as the one mentioned in the first post. I was being careful not to dispute the fact that the sound of some acoustic instruments may change over time. No one seems to be able to prove that part either way, so there is no sense in arguing the point.
Click to expand...

My point is how do you know this? Is it based on evidence or observation, thats all?
 
muttley600 said:
My point is how do you know this? Is it based on evidence or observation, thats all?
Click to expand...

No, as I mentioned in my first post, it is simply my opinion. I don't believe the thing works. I don't believe that it does anything except maybe fatigue the wood and ware out the instrument faster. I DO, however, believe it does one thing successfully...it separates the gullible from the logical thinkers.
 
Ok I have no problem with that, I just pointed out that there is some evidence that the theory works, and that you are wrong that it will "ware" out the instrument. I also mentioned some of the science that you mentioned you understood but didn't elaborate on. I'll also add now that it wont fatigue the wood as you put it. It is as you say unlikely to work and even if it did the results are not predictable.

I have no problem debunking guitar myths I do it quite a bit here, but I do like to give as much info as possible for others to use when making their judgements and formulating an opinion so that they can then go and explore elsewhere if they choose..
 
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