Virtual guitar amps/analog guitar amps

[Lt. Bob]

It wasn't good it was great. But my girl and I were off axis and she hung back for a bit and until I got right in front of it it was phasey comb filtered mud.

Mush...and in the way of the rest of the band.

Love my Marshalls.

Loved my Fenders in the past and will again.

My Peavey was loud and put callouses on my fingers twirling knobs and never found the pocket. Same with a Roland, 'modelling' and all.

Sims...well..I'm still tracking. I'll let you know at mastering. They're good enough I haven't repatched back thru the Marshalls...yet. But I'm not hearing IT yet either, same as the Peavey.

But you won't find any 4x12s on my monitor bridge.

Ain't seen any in other studios either.

Been a looooong time since I saw one used as a PA, and it sounded like...not good.

true enough but it's an apples to oranges sort of comparison.

Unless you're strictly aiming to create a new sort of sound for guitars, the last thing you want is a studio monitor or full range PA sound.
For most currently favored guitar tones you need some sort of distortion, something monitors and PAs are designed to avoid and you don't want a flat response curve and certainly don't want strong response up to 18,000 or so.
If you did you'd see guitar players adding tweeters to their rigs and except for acoustic stuff you never see that. The distortion and cone breakup and freq. resonse of guitar speakers are an intrinsic part of the sound.
For me, I like a midrange emphasis while others prefer a mid-cut.

Granted, I can understand that there are those that want to make new sounds and don't want to go with the long time tones that have been a round for so many years.
I get that and I'm not only unafraid of it ..... I'll be interested in what comes..

But unless you're talking about such newer hi-fi sounds, there's no correlation between what monitors are supposed do and what guitar speakers are supposed to do; so the fact that they're not used in those roles means nothing.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...I'm trying to understand what guitar sound he's after.
I mean....the guitar cab in all its speakerconfigurationss has been around forever......because it works perfectly with a guitar amp.

There have been other speaker setups for just as long, and none of them have become tpreferredred choice for use with a guitar amp.

 

[Jay Tee 4303]

The only better sound on earth than a Gibson thru a Marshall and one or more 4x12s, that I've found, anyway, is not appropriate for discussion here.

If thats all I want to hear.

If I want to blend that sound with drums, bass and vox....or distribute that sound beyond one room...

The obvious methods of doing so are the entire reason for the existence of this forum, and no where will you find recommendations to drive a live room or arena with that config.

I've heard it work phenomenally from ten feet or less but it killed all else.

I've heard it work to tears of beauty in the right small to medium clubs, a very few times, usually on Tuesday nights. With the band, not against it.

When I started, back in the 60s, guitarists didn't own studios, and didn't have many options, and could be forgiven.

Now...Everybody knows the rules...room treatment, boutique pres, exotic mics, nulls and peaks, and most guitarists can tell you why studio monitors use horns for dispersion, have rounded faces to avoid refraction artifacts, some can even expound on the downsides of phase cancellation at the crossover point in multi-driver designs and the hazards of ported reflex configurations....

...but they're still buyin and defending....columns.

Rectilinear columns.

 

[miroslav]

...but they're still buyin and defending....columns.

Rectilinear columns.

Still not getting what it is you are arguing for or against....???

What's mixing other sounds got to do with a guitar amp/cab combination?
AFA the studio (or club/venue PA)....you put a mic in front of that wonderfull guitar amp/cab....and then mix it together with your other sounds through your studio monitors (or club/venue PA).

Where's the difficulty/problem...?

 

[Lt. Bob]

Yeah...I'm trying to understand what guitar sound he's after.
I mean....the guitar cab in all it's speaker configuraitons has been around forever......becuase it works perfectly with a guitar amp.
There've been other speaker setups for just as long, and none of them have beceom the preffered choice for use with a guitar amp.

I think his point is that a guitars' sound has been limited by that and there should be more varied sounds besides the relatively few that we've ended up with. I suppose if that is part of what you're trying to do, then I can see the point. For example ..... if you had something that made you guitar sound just like a piano, it still wouldn't sound like a piano thru a guitar amp. It's limiting in that sense.
If you accept the premise that you can, in fact, duplicate an amps sound thru a full range set-up , then it's hard to ignore that there would be tones you couldn't get before added to the sounds of amps.


For me ...... I'm interested in the playing skillz ..... that's what sets me off. So I'm rarely looking at the tone aspect unless the tones are bad. Then I hate them ....... but if they're acceptable I'm far more focused on my playing or someone elses playing.
I wanna see chops dammit!
And, maybe because I've done it this way for so long, I play better with a nice amp. I know how to make it do what I want and I can concentrate on my skillz and work to get as good as I can before death lops my head off.

 

[Lt. Bob]

...but they're still buyin and defending....columns.

Rectilinear columns.

you must not be reading anyones' posts .... no one here is buying columns nor has anyone suggested that anyone else should nor has anyone said the slightest defense of columns ....... lol.
I can't imagine anyone here has used a column in a very long time.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[miroslav]

Still not getting what it is you are arguing for or against....???

What's mixing other sounds got to do with a guitar amp/cab combination?
AFA the studio (or club/venue PA)....you put a mic in front of that wonderfull guitar amp/cab....and then mix it together with your other sounds through your studio monitors (or club/venue PA).

Where's the difficulty/problem...?

^^^^^^^^

What the hell are you talking about?

That's what I meant to say.

 

[Greg_L]

Jay Tee is a rambling incoherent mess.

 

[Jay Tee 4303]

I'll go further yet.

If you have a 59 Paul, or something similar,and the time, money, and patience to try and capture Niagra Falls with a coke spoon, I'll help you do it.

If the vintage axe, and most kinds of day to day stability are still in your future...use the tech to drive the room to perfection....its a LOT closer than you think. You already knowhow.

I'm not saying drive a 20k transducer to 20k, and I'm not sayin drive it to 40, and I'm not tellin you to dump your tubes for Crown power. I'm simlpy askin you why you are living with, and apparantly indifferent to...everything you xame here to learn, and thedead empty doughnut section tween the dancers and the wall huggers.

Wanna know why Slipperman got to be such a hardcase to begin with? You already do.

Again...if the 412 is the only way to get that mid honk you gotta have....its the only way.

But you know the rules now, and the only thing tween you and a LOT more than JUST a honk...is the box that no longer need exist.

When you six that box, studio tone, club tone, and arena tone become one and the same. Ok...close...closer...

 

[MrWrenchey]

One of his earlier comments talked about how he hasn't seen any studios with 4x12s. I can only assume he's never been to a real studio, just the ones his buddies have made.

Be right back, let me find a bunch of professional studios that all use cabs because I've NEVER heard of someone going to Nashville because of their sick combination of Guitar Rig and Amplitube they're rawkin' at that studio...

 

[Jay Tee 4303]

From a wave theory, physics, acoustic principle point of view...

...walk us all thru the differences between a 412 guitar cab and a 412 column.

 

[MrWrenchey]

Examples: Here's a list of Blackbird studio's guitar cabs/amps/everythingthatyouthinksucks.

http://www.blackbirdstudio.com/resources/gear_amps.pdf

Strangely, no sims are listed. Huh.

Prime Recording studios.

Gear List | Nashville Recording Studio - Prime Recording

Tube amps and Leslies everywhere. Oops.

Frick, even this Mellow Hollow studio only has one amp, but go figure, it's tube.

Nashville Recording Studio Gear

And yet for some reason I don't see one of these big studios touting their amp sims. Weird, right? Because I mean, you've never seen people using amps at a "real" studio, have you.

 

[Greg_L]

This Jay Tee guy needs a lobotomy and klops setup.

 

[miroslav]

But you know the rules now, and the only thing tween you and a LOT more than JUST a honk...is the box that no longer need exist.

When you six that box, studio tone, club tone, and arena tone become one and the same. Ok...close...closer...

Well....if all you ever got out of a guitar cab is.... HONK ...then your problems were more than just the cab.

There's all kind sof great guitar tones you can get from "the box"....and if you stick a mic in front of it, it's the same tone for studio, club and arena.

WTF is this so hard for some people?

 

[onlinetom]

Sims by definition are simulating something, they sound "similar", but not the same, so they're second rate by definition. If you're at a gig or recording a track and you dial in "British" or "Tweed" on your sim, you may think you sound like a Marshall or a Fender but you don't. You sound Marshall-y, Fender-ish.

Maybe you're the guitarist for Justin Bieber and sound doesn't matter, maybe you don't want your guitar to sound like a guitar for some mood music, but for 95% of live playing and recording, a sim is not acceptable.

You don't need stacks for good tone with a tube amp (aesthetics for rock bands aside), but even a small tube combo is going to be more than a few pounds. If you're saying you're okay with second rate sound because the amp is heavy, maybe you should consider something from the woodwind family.

I've been stopping by this site to learn how to get my tracks to sound as close to first rate as possible, intentionally using second rate tone would seem to be antithetical to the purpose of this website.

 

[DM60]

And I'm not sure why you come back at me in a slightly adversarial tone ..... I've repeatedly said that digital is fine if it's your chosen rig and have also said that I expect digital to eventually take over.

I'm hardly a dinosaur other than having a lot of years on me (sorry if that offends you) and I certainly haven't said anything about amps being the best way to go other than to say it's my personal preference and even then I've pointed out that I myself regularly use a modeler instead of an amp at gigs.

I simply reported on whether I see them being used much or not since I am out there.

So I hardly deserve your obvious contempt since NO one loves to play more than me and I'm as progressive and open to new tech as they come.

This was not the intent. I would like to offer an apology.

 

[Greg_L]

WTF is this so hard for some people?

Because people are hellbent on fixing things that aren't broken. It's human nature.

 

[onlinetom]

I remember pop-synth bands in the 1980's and 90's saying the synth was going to kill the guitar.

 

[Jay Tee 4303]

Now...why do studios put 412s in a box or closet...and not on the meter bridge?

Why doesn't Northwest fly100 412s for a Stones gig...those boys can afford the BEST...right?

I'm hearing that 412s can somehow accomplish magic that NO OTHER TRANSDUCER DESIGN CAN EVEN APPROACH...

...and I'm further hearing there is zero downside, soooo...

...when you start blowing timing with your wireless rig at the back of the club, cuz your sub (mid?) is fighting a five figure PA, or the engineer off at the desk cuz HE can't find a locomotive with a penlight...

Ima realize...the way I have once a decade since the 70s, that I'm wastin my time and yours.

You'll get it when you want to get it.

All the best.

I MEAN that.

(For those too young to have made yer bones in the 412 mafia...go read Slipperman....all 54335688642236 pages of it...then...look behind your head of choice for a hole that says line out...and I have every confidence you are bright enough to solve every problem...quickly and easily, from there on out.

When you figure it out....let sleeping dinosaurs lie.)

 

[MrWrenchey]

Why doesn't Northwest fly100 412s for a Stones gig...those boys can afford the BEST...right?

I'm just going to say that I've worked at a casino as an AV tech at one point, and while the Stones weren't there, I've seen acts like Santana and Lynyrd Skynyrd and the Beach Boys and such. They all use 4x12s when they were playing, and their engineer was educated and knew what he was doing so he could make it all sound great. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, because the big acts typically are still using the big cabinets and tube amps.