The best way to transfer the analog signal from my 244 to my computer
- Thread starter Illsidgus
- Start date
Hey friends. I have what is likely a stupid question here, so please forgive me. In transferring from the Tascam 234 to Cubase using a Tascam US-1800, is it possible that the VU meters mean anything? It seems that the Output needs to be cranked, cause even when it is, there's still room for the waveform to be louder. When the output is cranked the VU meters are set on peaking. I'm assuming this is meaningless, and the VU meters only matter for Input right? It doesn't seem to distort the sound, but at times I wonder if it is. So just crank the Outputs on the 234 to get the loudest possible Input into the computer? (Seeing's how it doesn't get loud enough to "peak" on the computer? Sorry if this is dumb. Please bear with me ha.
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
VU meters matter.
I think first you should determine if your REC/PB response on the 234 is correct. If you input a 0VU signal when recording, does the VU meter indicate 0VU on playback? If not, there could be an internal calibration issue on the 234. It's my opinion that most vintage devices of this type and age would require calibration, as most of them have not been calibrated since factory new.
You should also get a nominal 0VU signal when the Input & Output controls are at their "cal" position, often is set with a detent, but if no detent would be halfway between the "7" and "8" volume mark in the knob's travel. If this is not the case, again would indicate need for calibration on the 234.
Then you should verify if your US1800 is looking for a -10db nominal line level, vs. a +4db level. The 234 and most other devices in this class run at a -10dbV line level.
I think first you should determine if your REC/PB response on the 234 is correct. If you input a 0VU signal when recording, does the VU meter indicate 0VU on playback? If not, there could be an internal calibration issue on the 234. It's my opinion that most vintage devices of this type and age would require calibration, as most of them have not been calibrated since factory new.
You should also get a nominal 0VU signal when the Input & Output controls are at their "cal" position, often is set with a detent, but if no detent would be halfway between the "7" and "8" volume mark in the knob's travel. If this is not the case, again would indicate need for calibration on the 234.
Then you should verify if your US1800 is looking for a -10db nominal line level, vs. a +4db level. The 234 and most other devices in this class run at a -10dbV line level.
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
I think first you should determine if your REC/PB response on the 234 is correct. If you input a 0VU signal when recording, does the VU meter indicate 0VU on playback? If not, there could be an internal calibration issue on the 234. It's my opinion that most vintage devices of this type and age would require calibration, as most of them have not been calibrated since factory new.
You should also get a nominal 0VU signal when the Input & Output controls are at their "cal" position, often is set with a detent, but if no detent would be halfway between the "7" and "8" volume mark in the knob's travel. If this is not the case, again would indicate need for calibration on the 234.
Then you should verify if your US1800 is looking for a -10db nominal line level, vs. a +4db level. The 234 and most other devices in this class run at a -10dbV line level.
Thank you so much for your reply. I'm fairly certain that the 234 is in fine working order. It was serviced before I got it for one thing, and seems to work great really. Just to make it clear, my concern is with the transfer to digital. When recording to the 234, I appropriate the VU meters as is natural, with the recommended Input Level. The 234 has no mixer, only a pan(L/R) and an output. So no Master Cue. So after the actual recording, in transferring the recording to Cubase via the US1800, does the level of the Output matter in regards to the tape signal? Wouldn't it just be volume at this point? Been thinking the VU meters are just responding to the signal in general here, where in this instance they don't matter because the Output is going to an external device. The Us1800 is set on -10db as I am aware of that being necessary with the 234. Does seem strange that the output into the computer would be cranked though, but otherwise the transferred waveform has so much space left before peaking levels. If I crank the outputs on the 234, there is still some room available in the digital constraints on Cubase, but I wouldn't necessarily want it any louder. I guess I'm wondering if the output of the recorded signal means anything more than volume, and thus if the VU meters need to be heeded if they are swung hard to the red right.
Thanks!
Yeah the line inputs on the back. 11, 12 etc. I set everything set to -10 because that's what the 234 works at.
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
Well, they do matter.
Any time the VU meters are pegging onto the right side it indicates you are close to overloading the internal electronics (on playback) and/or the tape (on recording).
However, in the end you just do what works best.
Any time the VU meters are pegging onto the right side it indicates you are close to overloading the internal electronics (on playback) and/or the tape (on recording).
However, in the end you just do what works best.
jimmys69
MOODerator
Keep in mind that the visual image you see in Cubase (or any other DAW) is not like a typical analog meter. You are not so concerned with the noise floor like you are with tape.
This is a representation of the audio for editing purposes. The only time you really need to keep levels in check in digital recording, is for some plugins (like some tape saturation ones) that 'expect' a certain level to be input to them. This would be around -18dBFS. This is the 'kind of' the digital equivalent to 0dB on an analog machine. Then, actually the most important is the final analog out from the DAW. Your master should never pass 0dB or you will get digital clipping, which is not cool like analog. Nothing good will come from that.
In Cubase, on the far right side of the Project Window (main screen when you open) there is a slider near the top. This controls the size of the waveform. This does not change gain. Only to adjust the size so you can edit more easily. Like I said, it does not change the audio, nor is the waveform necessarily a true representation of input level.
You should look for input levels into DAW at around -18dBFS. About halfway up the scale in the Cubase mixer. The rest is headroom. This is what you want for mixing. No need to have them higher, though like I said, you can clip -Or I should say, you can't really clip a DAW at this stage. Plugins, possibly yes, but you can put individual tracks in the red and hear no yuckiness. Just don't do it on the master out bus (back to analog).
I hope that helped. I just quickly browsed through the earlier posts as I have a session here in a few.
This is a representation of the audio for editing purposes. The only time you really need to keep levels in check in digital recording, is for some plugins (like some tape saturation ones) that 'expect' a certain level to be input to them. This would be around -18dBFS. This is the 'kind of' the digital equivalent to 0dB on an analog machine. Then, actually the most important is the final analog out from the DAW. Your master should never pass 0dB or you will get digital clipping, which is not cool like analog. Nothing good will come from that.
In Cubase, on the far right side of the Project Window (main screen when you open) there is a slider near the top. This controls the size of the waveform. This does not change gain. Only to adjust the size so you can edit more easily. Like I said, it does not change the audio, nor is the waveform necessarily a true representation of input level.
You should look for input levels into DAW at around -18dBFS. About halfway up the scale in the Cubase mixer. The rest is headroom. This is what you want for mixing. No need to have them higher, though like I said, you can clip -Or I should say, you can't really clip a DAW at this stage. Plugins, possibly yes, but you can put individual tracks in the red and hear no yuckiness. Just don't do it on the master out bus (back to analog).
I hope that helped. I just quickly browsed through the earlier posts as I have a session here in a few.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I just wanna know if after all this time....have the tracks been transfered yet?
Heck...if I had a 244 or other 4-track player, I would have gladly done the transfers for you!
Heck...if I had a 244 or other 4-track player, I would have gladly done the transfers for you!
Farview
Well-known member
The meters in cubase are not VU meters. They are peak meters using a dbfs scale. 0db on that scale is as high as you can go, it is not the nominal target level.
If you have everything set for -10 operation, transfer the tracks at 0db VU according to the 4-track. You can use the zoom controls to make the waveforms look bigger if you want. You can also add gain in cubase without adding noise.
That is the cleanest way to transfer the tracks.
If you have everything set for -10 operation, transfer the tracks at 0db VU according to the 4-track. You can use the zoom controls to make the waveforms look bigger if you want. You can also add gain in cubase without adding noise.
That is the cleanest way to transfer the tracks.
Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice. So definitely not a good idea to crank the output ha. I think I was getting confused by the general recommendation to input high to make full use of quality, which is more to do with the recording itself, and it doesn't matter so much when transferring tape to digital.
Ha. That would be fun. I'll feed you soup and beer. Come on down.
I just wanna know if after all this time....have the tracks been transfered yet?
Heck...if I had a 244 or other 4-track player, I would have gladly done the transfers for you!
Ha. That would be fun. I'll feed you soup and beer. Come on down.
Hello my dreamlets. Quick question. In transferring from 4 track to Cubase, is there any reason to transfer in 24 bit depth? I've been doing it in 16 bit depth, but I know 24 bit is the way a lot of people go in recording to digital. I realize I'm only transferring to digital. 16 bit seems to be the program default, which I trusted. I imagine it shouldn't make any difference whatsoever in my case, but would like to know for sure. I can't tell much difference anyhow.
Farview
Well-known member
Normally, I do everything in 24 bit. I suppose if you get good levels, 16 bit will be fine. The digital noise floor ( the only thing that bit depth affects), will be lower than the noise floor of your tracks, so no harm done.
All processing in the daw will be done at 32 bit float, so it dosen't affect that.
The only time it will make a difference is if you process a track and save the file with the processing. But there isn't much reason to do that if you are just mixing.
All processing in the daw will be done at 32 bit float, so it dosen't affect that.
The only time it will make a difference is if you process a track and save the file with the processing. But there isn't much reason to do that if you are just mixing.
Thanks again Farview. Really appreciate your generosity with your time in being of such continual assistance. "All processing in the daw will be done at 32 bit float, so it dosen't affect that." This means it won't affect mixdown once everything has already been transferred?
"The only time it will make a difference is if you process a track and save the file with the processing. But there isn't much reason to do that if you are just mixing." - What qualifies as processing in this sense? I add amplitude and Eq, but surely you do not mean these to be what you mean by processing?
Would it be better if I just recorded transferred tracks in 24 bit? Or does it make no difference? Thanks so much Farview.
Farview
Well-known member
Any processing, including gain and eq will be done at 32 float.
when you mix, all the processing is done on the fly. The actual audio files never change. If you were to actually write over the file with a new processed version, then it would make a difference. Think of it as bouncing a track on your 4 track with eq applied...thats the sort if thing I'm talking about.
when you mix, all the processing is done on the fly. The actual audio files never change. If you were to actually write over the file with a new processed version, then it would make a difference. Think of it as bouncing a track on your 4 track with eq applied...thats the sort if thing I'm talking about.
Farview
Well-known member
Yes, the original bit depth will not affect the quality of the mixdown because it is automatically mixed down at a high bit depth.
Again, anything you do is technically processing. Gain is a gray area in a daw, if you are talking about mixdown, it really isn't processing. If you are doing destructive editing (changing the gain and resaving the file), that is processing.
Again, anything you do is technically processing. Gain is a gray area in a daw, if you are talking about mixdown, it really isn't processing. If you are doing destructive editing (changing the gain and resaving the file), that is processing.
Considering mixdown needs to be done at 16 bit for cd or vinyl, is there any reason to work in 24 bit if the aim is for such artifacts? Could it maybe have advantages even, in that the audio tracks aren't going through a further conversion process? Thank you for your patience!
In my testing of the same song recorded at 16 and 24 bit depth respectively, I hear no difference at all. Seems strange though that the default on Cubase would be 16 bit depth if 24 is better.
In my testing of the same song recorded at 16 and 24 bit depth respectively, I hear no difference at all. Seems strange though that the default on Cubase would be 16 bit depth if 24 is better.
Farview
Well-known member
You shouldn't hear a difference on tracks that you initially recorded on the 4 track. The difference between 16 bit and 24 bit are where the theoretical digital noise floor is. 16 bit has a noise floor of -96dbfs and 24 bit has a noise floor of -144dbfs.
Now, where 24 bit would make a difference is during processing. All processing will create some sort of noise or artifacts. (this happens with analog too) This stuff all happens around the noise floor. If you use 24 bit, those artifacts end up so far down that they don't matter ever. Also, once the audio is converted to 16 bit during mastering, all the artifacts get thrown away with those last 8 bits.
Always mix down to 24 bit, then convert to 16 bit during mastering.
Now, where 24 bit would make a difference is during processing. All processing will create some sort of noise or artifacts. (this happens with analog too) This stuff all happens around the noise floor. If you use 24 bit, those artifacts end up so far down that they don't matter ever. Also, once the audio is converted to 16 bit during mastering, all the artifacts get thrown away with those last 8 bits.
Always mix down to 24 bit, then convert to 16 bit during mastering.