My PERFECT 244 - another Bad Rubber inquiry

The 244 was an expensive unit originally. Spend the extra 30 bucks and fix it properly once and for all.

Look at it this way; at least you're not spending 50-100 dollars an hour for a technician to do this right? You've managed to get free advice and instructions here.

Cheers! :)
 
I agree. Just change the tires / idlers. Otherwise we'll continue to speculate, troubleshoot and search in the dark when, in fact, the rubber is almost always to blame. See, if you were servicing the unit for yourself I'd have recommended you replace all that rubber from the beginning, all across the board, no question but then the issue of reselling and keeping the expenses down surfaced... Look at it this way, if in the unlikely event the loud noises continue, the 244 has some other, rare issues which are probably out of the experience of most here, motor, logic related etc... Again this is VERY UNLIKELY. Minor problems with the quality of the rubber can spell major problems for the transport. We have to set the idler issue / variable aside. There is no other way.
 
Otherwise we'll continue to speculate
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Exactly.

Tom!

Change the parts that everyone and their uncle has been telling you to change and after that if there's still issues, we can continue useful speculation once the obvious issues are addressed.

I recently sold my 244 for 50 bucks because I couldn't be bothered to change the idler tires and realized that the value of a perfectly working 244 is still only going to be around 100 bucks these days so I figured it was best to just dump it and let the next person, who is actually going to use it, to make the service investment and my buyer was willing to do that.

The real financial lesson in all of this is that this gear should NEVER be viewed as a financial investment unless you need the capital losses to balance out the capital gains! :laughings:

And speaking of investments, I think Daniel should be given your machine for free due to all the time he spent helping you out here. :D

Cheers! :)
 
The Ghost of FM said:
The 244 was an expensive unit originally. Spend the extra 30 bucks and fix it properly once and for all...at least you're not spending 50-100 dollars an hour for a technician to do this right? You've managed to get free advice and instructions here.
Click to expand...
Money is TIGHT(!) right now and instead of making a little by selling this machine, I find I'm spending. But you're right. In for a penny, in for a pound.

I revised my video (and shortened it). If you and Beck and cjacek have a few minutes, would you please go there, watch the vid and consider ths new possibility? (see my webpage written comments, too)

LINK TO MY REVISED VIDEO

Afterward, if you guys still think its the idler tires, I will purchase the upper and lower assemblies, and a new pinch roller too, from TASCAM.

Thanks
 
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Tom Overthere said:
I agree. Money is TIGHT(!) right now and instead of making a little by selling this machine, I find I'm spending. But you're right. In for a penny, in for a pound - and let the 244 do all the 'whining' L:DL!

I revised my video (and shortened it). The revised version asks a new question - which is the the reason I'm not convinced the idler tires are the cause. If you and Beck and cjacek have a few minutes, would you please go there, watch the vid and consider this other possibility? (see my webpage written comments, too)

LINK TO MY REVISED VIDEO

Afterward, if you guys still think its the idler tires, I will indeed purchase the upper and lower assemblies, and a new pinch roller too, from TASCAM.

Thanks

(EDIT: you posted just before I posted this / / please review the revised video anyway, thanks)
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Done.

My suggestions stay the same.

Also, you can't judge the noise levels accurately with the case off. The case and cassette well flip up door will mute those noises by about half.

But, the clickity clack sound is definitely from worn, pitted tires. And that jitter will screw up your recordings by adding wow and flutter and is why it is critical to change them!!!...!

So for the love of god, change the bastards already and stop this incessant exercise in futility.

Then once it's done, put the case back on, put a tape in, hit record and see if the noise is disturbing to the point that it would leak into a live mic 3 feet away, set to record a vocal or acoustic guitar. If after that recording, you can hear the transport in the take, then and only then would I worry about it.

Cheers! :)
 
Tom, yes, the motor seems to be going at about the same speed while in FF AND Play. Let me deconstruct this a bit....

The operations WITHOUT tape seem to function fine. That loud sustained noise is the "spooling" motor going at at full speed. Normal.

It gets a bit interesting WITH the tape 'cause now everything changes. Let me explain as best as I can.. When you load the tape in, everything essentially works the same, all parties are involved BUT the only thing which is different is that the capstan motor - capstan shaft / pinch roller (its pressure on the capstan shaft) bring the speed down. What this means is that when Play / REC is engaged, the pinch roller "pinches" the tape to the capstan shaft and slows the spooling motor's speed, essentially from going FF, by way of the idler rubber friction on the spooling motor shaft and the R plastic reel table.

The Play function does not slow the spooling motor down by itself. The cassette tape and pinch of the roller does that. The PROBLEM, that now I see much more clearly, is that the reason you're hearing, what amounts to this grinding noise, in only FF / Play modes, is simply the poor rubber having to pull that FULL left spool of tape and the motor shaft probably loosing grip, skipping (on the rubber idler) and going faster speed much of the time but still enough for it to work. Obviously when you rewind, it's easy. Why? Because there is little resistance.

I think the big clue comes with operations tested WITHOUT tape present. Everything works fine, notice the FF / REW are essentially the same, in terms of speed, noise and ease. What makes the difference is the tape and resistance of it. YOU HAVE BAD IDLER RUBBER.

The end of tape sounds also are very much like the bad "too soft" rubber issue. The spooling motor shaft is straining, skipping and pushing into the rubber too much, creating all sorts of problems.

Hope this makes sense. I'll put it this way.... The extra $30 will give you a def answer. Again, if it's something else, we'll cross that bridge but then it likely will be a whole new different frontier. This is not to scare you but letting you know that there's really no way around the idler issue. There's just too much evidence which suggests you really do need new rubber. It's the cause of 99% of all issues with these portastudios and, believe it or not, bad tiny little rubber wheels can simulate some interesting problems you'd never think would happen from such a simple thing.
 
I'm Buying New Tires, and maybe a muffler and shocks...

cjacek said:
Tom, yes, the motor seems to be going at about the same speed while in FF AND Play. Let me deconstruct this a bit....

( there were at least 5o lbs of good, helpful information here, but I saw no need to quote the whole thing :D )

...The end of tape sounds also are very much like the bad "too soft" rubber issue. The spooling motor shaft is straining, skipping and pushing into the rubber too much, creating all sorts of problems.

...YOU HAVE BAD IDLER RUBBER.
Click to expand...
Thanks a LOT, cjacek (Hey, what's your name, anyway? I'm Tom). I had no understanding of how PLAY speed was achieved, as compared to the FF speed. Nor did I understand any other technical aspects of how a tape transport works. For years I lived according to, "Just clean and demagnatize the heads, and don't spill your drink in there..." :eek: Popping the 244 hood with the help of you and Dr Zee and others here is teaching me all manner of things I would never have learned otherwise.

I'll call TASCAM and order the upper and lower idler tire assemblies and a new pinch roller, too (even though the existing one looks perfect). And TGoFM is right. You're working on this thing almost as hard as I am. Thanks, man. Must be that respect for the equipment to which you referred earlier.


Interesting point #1: For some reason I didn't receive an email notification of the last two posts here. I only stopped by because I hadn't heard from you guys (and here I find a "Dissertation on the Workings of Modern Tape Transport Systems"). I'm glad I checked in; that's a masterful explanation you prepared. And I certainly appreciate TGoFM's advice and wit, as well. :D I'll check my forum User CP just to be sure my email address didn't get garbled somehow.

Interesting point #2: I also learn at another audio online forum, GearSlutz.com (not as bad as it sounds). I've been haunting the Mastering forum recently, and noticed that many of the members include links to their audio mastering businesses in their postings. I visited a few of the sites and was amazed at how--despite this age of digital audio workstations, virtual synths and effects--the major focus of elite multitrack MASTERING is...ANALOG GEAR!!! LOL! 2" tape on 24-track analog transports and 1/4" tape on mastering transports - and behemoth mixing consoles from decades ago. Apparently it's all about the "warmth" of tubes and analog circuitry... It's a CRAZY WORLD, NO?
 
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Hey, you're welcome Tom. :) It's Daniel (or Dan) BTW. ;)

The email notification thing doesn't seem to be functioning for a long time now, at least for me, so I just remember to visit the threads I post to. :D

When you actually get a chance to slip on the new idler wheels, try to gently clean off any previous rubber from where the tires touch, meaning the metal spooling motor shaft (only if it's dirty) and the plastic sides of the reel tables (don't use alcohol on these - water moistened rag, cloth or q-tip will be fine - not dripping wet tho). The metal shaft can be cleaned with alcohol and some lint free material. I'm hesitant using cotton 'cause it may leave hairs / lint on the thing. Gently, by hand, try to turn the metal spindle to get all sides, again, only if needed.

BTW, getting a new pinch roller is a good idea, even if you don't plan to replace it just yet. I think, tho, that it may be a good idea to do now too 'cause you'll have to disassemble again, in the future, and why go through that again? :D;)

BTW, I'd seriously rethink this whole selling your 244. It's now your baby. :D
 
cjacek said:
A. The email notification thing doesn't seem to be functioning for a long time now, at least for me, so I just remember to visit the threads I post to. :D

B. When you actually get a chance to slip on the new idler wheels, try to gently clean off any previous rubber from where the tires touch...

C. getting a new pinch roller is a good idea...it may be a good idea to do now too 'cause you'll have to disassemble again

D. I'd seriously rethink this whole selling your 244. It's now your baby. :D
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Dan ==
A. It's been spot-on for me all along. I double-checked my User CP settings, and all was well. Received notice of your most recent post too. Maybe check your CP settings (Email, Subscriptions, Notifications).

B. The brass "spooling motor shaft" (terminology!) is clean as a whistle, which surprised me after seeing Doc Z's photos. I'll clean that and the "reel tables" (more terminology!) as you suggest. Thanks for the heads up (and education).

C. Yeah, removing the top cover is a BEAR: The 9 screws are a real challenge, and I would NEVER have been able to find them all (or replace them) without Dr ZEE's fine tutorials. My knobs, particularly the sweepable EQ pairs were extremely difficult to remove. I assume they'd be just as bad in the future (Murphy's law) so I will replace the pinch roller now.

Amazing fact: When I first flipped the unit upside down to remove the bottom cover I found that one of the little black screws was missing. Like most guys, I've been collecting odd hardware in multiple jars, boxes, baggies for years. If I find something on the floor and don't know it's origin, I squirrel it away for "someday" when I figure it out. Well, early in the winter I gathered all my "senseless hardware" into one place and sorted it all out. Took about a week of free time. IT HAS PAID OFF! I went to my newly established "small machine screws" container and ACTUALLY FOUND THAT TASCAM SCREW! WooHoo! :D

D. I'm afraid you may be right. The exact opposite of my "plan" (plan? God is laughing :laughings:). If I keep the 244, maybe I'll put it in the living room as a spur-of-the-moment "songwriter's note pad"...
 
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Tom Overthere said:
Maybe check your CP settings (Email, Subscriptions, Notifications).
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It's funny 'cause all my notifications are ON and have been for years and, what's hilarious is that I still get notified of posts made years back but nothing recent.:D I don't worry about it tho.

C. Yeah, removing the top cover is a BEAR: The 9 screws are a real challenge, and I would NEVER have been able to find them all (or replace them) without Dr ZEE's fine tutorials. My knobs, particularly the sweepable EQ pairs were extremely difficult to remove. I assume they'd be just as bad in the future (Murphy's law) so I will replace the pinch roller now.
Click to expand...

It was as stressful for me as for you. It is a BEAR. The knobs too were a challenge but I inserted them back a bit more gently so that next time it's not as hard to remove.

If I keep the 244, maybe I'll put it in the living room as a spur-of-the-moment "songwriter's note pad"...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'd keep it. :)
 
How to feed the beast?

Dan ==

I've seen various posts on the topic of TAPE PREFERENCES, some from you, but could you help me boil it down to simple terms.

I have 12 of these, unopened, purchased about 7 years ago for projects not involving the 244: Maxell Normal bias UR 90min (see image below). There's no Type I or II or III mentioned.

normalbias-ur90_front-back.jpg


I read comments elsewhere (by you, I think) saying the better tapes cause more wear on rec and playback heads (due to more oxides?). Does a synopsis exist that clarifies tape quality vs head wear vs best audio results?

If I keep my 244, I'll only use it as a notepad. In that case, is the Normal Bias UR 90 useable? How does it rank in terms of head wear, and in terms of sound quality?

If you don't feel like typing, can you point me to a link that covers this?

Also, if I need to buy better tape, is there an ECONOMICAL SOURCE ONLINE? I'm not sure one can even find cassette tapes anymore, and I need to figure this out before I spend another $40 on "tires".

Thanks
 
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Contact PRB (Projector Recorder Belt, 800-645-2202) and let them know you need an FRY11.5 (capstan belt) and a SCQ6.0. Many service centers use PRB, and if there's a place near you that does a lot of tape decks, they probably have them in stock, but the markup is usually pretty high on over the counter belts.

There used to be a product called 'Friends Vita-Drive' that was great at reconditioning idlers and pinch rollers. With proper application, I've seen it relive indentations exactly like the ones on your unit. You wouldn't believe some of the old Akai idlers that I have brought back to life with this stuff. I don't think it's available any longer, I'm down to my last bottle and use it very sparingly.
 
Thanks, LDS, but I already purchased and installed the belts.

Here's what I found on your suggested "Vita Drive" at THIS LINK, see 6th post:

I have a bottle of Vita-Drive rubber cleaner that I've probably had
for 40 years, maybe more. Lasts a long time. I did a Google search for
it to see if it was still available, and after narrowing things down
to eliminate what appeared to be some sort of health pills, I came up
with a reference to:

Vita-Drive Rubber Drive Cleaner
Scotty Enterprises of Monroe, Inc.,
645 Ketal Ave, Williamstown, NJ 08094.
Tel # 609-728-9438.

Their claim on label: "Will restore the gripping
surface of hardened rubber drives used in Tape Recorders and Video
Equipment, etc."

I don't know how old that info is, and the phone number doesn't come
up with a name with an on-line reverse lookup, so maybe it's a dead
end. But it's probably worth a phone call during business hours. It's
really great stuff, if it still exists and it's like what they made in
the 1950s.​

No time to call them right now. If someone stock's it locally (RadioShack?) I'll give it a try. Will let you know if I find any. Thanks
 
You were right!

Well, Dan ===

I found rubber faucet aerator washers locally (see below) and they set me back $0.67 each. :eek:
For the record, they're made by DANCO of Irving, TX, described as:

#4 AERATOR WASHER
23/32" O.D. x 31/64" I.D.
DANCO Stock No. 36170 B

They're a good fit, but are not wide enough. I mounted them anyway, as an experiment.
YOU (and DrZ and TGoFM and Beck) WERE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. :drunk: :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

All the noise is G-O-N-E. Whisper quiet and totally smooth in PLAY, FF and RR. And no more "verp...verp...yerp verp...verp" during end-of-tape microprocessing. I couldn't believe those particular noises were caused by rubber that's still pliant and appears to be perfectly good. Thanks for viewing my "cinema project". You guys nailed it.

I'll have to replace these washers with the correct size. I measure the original Tascam tires as being .097" wide/thick. These washers are only .070" and that's big difference. They're so narrow that I'm sure they would not stay properly on the white plastic rims. So I'm going to try once more to find washers locally. If no luck, I'll have to buy from TEAC USA. Ch' CHING $ $ $

idler-tire-washers.jpg
 
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Tom, you have no idea how good that makes me feel. Really, congratulations my friend!:)

Thanks for putting up the specs of that washer. I know you mention that they're not wide enough but do they fit at least as snug as the originals? How closely do they spec as far as other dimensions (outer / inner diameter)?

Yup, the idler, pinch roller, belt system is really the heart of the transport with a very minor tolerance for being off spec, as you've already experienced. One tiny issue and you've got big problems. Good news is that it's often a very easy and relatively inexpensive fix. :D
 
cjacek said:
Thanks for putting up the specs of that washer. I know you mention that they're not wide enough but do they fit at least as snug as the originals? How closely do they spec as far as other dimensions (outer / inner diameter)?
Click to expand...

I find it impossible to measure the inside or outside diameter of a flexible object. I can tell you this, though:

a) the washer's outside diameter is the same or very slightly smaller than that of the Tascam tire

b) the washer's inside diameter is visibly smaller than that of the Tascam tire

c) see the top-left image to understand how the narrower washers fit on the plastic rims. Despite all that extra room, the washers are tight enough to remain in place. They don't spin freely on the rims or wander from one side to the other. On the other hand, the undersized inside diameter is not so tight as to cause any misshaping of the washer.

These washers work, but I'll buy new idler assemblies from Teac America,
and a new pinch roller, too...just to be sure.


washers-v-tires.jpg

CORRECTION: The Tascam tires are actually .097" wide.

X
 
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