My PERFECT 244 - another Bad Rubber inquiry

[Tom Overthere]

Helpful Pics, Excellent Timing

Thanks for the extra photos. Just in time, as my new belts arrived yesterday. Per your photos, that vinyl center fastener (my #1) appears to function as a bushing. Glad I know not to fool with it. Thanks.

Your last photo shows a truly like-new specimen. Still even has the sticky on the transport cover door. Impressive. Judging by your photo dates, Frigid February is "the time" for tearin' down the machinery.


Q1. What's the gray bottle at left-rear? A cleaner for the plastic, or an electrical contact cleaner? I need to clean the plastic surfaces really well before I reinstall the pot and fader caps, but don't want to risk marring/dulling the plastic surface with the wrong concoction. Any suggestions?

Q2. Also, I don't have contact cleaner on hand. If I re-assemble first, I can spray that stuff into the fader mechanisms past the slitted dust covers, right? Just affix the tiny spray tube to the nozzle and spray the length of the fader? Frankly, since the resale value is so questionable, I don't want to purchase $10 worth of cleaner that I'll likely only use this once. I have very little in the way of analog gear these days, and I don't recall there being any crackle in the faders...

Q3. Not sure how to test under present conditions whether my idler tires will work. With the unit disassembled (no bottom cover) I can't really set it on a table and pop in a tape. Need a third hand to hold the unit up on edge. No got, but I don't want to reassemble until I know the idler tires are good. Getting those knobs off was a PIA! So I don't want to go through that again.

Q4. I read about using laquer thinner to brighten up discolored (slightly yellowed) plastic transport control buttons. There's no way to remove those button surfaces from the top surface panel (they're plastic welded/riveted on). Any cautions with regard to laquer thinner and the dark surface around those buttons? Maybe just go lightly on the laquer thinner and control the rag to avoid surrounding dark plastic...?

 

[cjacek]

Your last photo shows a truly like-new specimen. Still even has the sticky on the transport cover door. Impressive. Judging by your photo dates, Frigid February is "the time" for tearin' down the machinery.

Thanks Tom. It is indeed in like new condition and I'm lucky that I've found most if not all of my gear in that shape, most local too, which is pretty good but took me a few years. Worth it tho.

Yeah, dunno what's with the February thing but I'm craving another one to service right about now.

Q1. What's the gray bottle at left-rear? A cleaner for the plastic, or an electrical contact cleaner? I need to clean the plastic surfaces really well before I reinstall the pot and fader caps, but don't want to risk marring/dulling the plastic surface with the wrong concoction. Any suggestions?

The bottle that you speak of is 99.9% isopropyl alcohol. I clean the heads with it and other metal related parts.

Why do you feel you need to clean the plastic surfaces with a chemical liquid? You mean the face cover of the 244? It's usually best to use a lint free rag (maybe dampened with water if necessary) and vacuum (carefully) if in deeper areas.

Q2. Also, I don't have contact cleaner on hand. If I re-assemble first, I can spray that stuff into the fader mechanisms past the slitted dust covers, right? Just affix the tiny spray tube to the nozzle and spray the length of the fader? Frankly, since the resale value is so questionable, I don't want to purchase $10 worth of cleaner that I'll likely only use this once. I have very little in the way of analog gear these days, and I don't recall there being any crackle in the faders...

I personally wouldn't touch it unless you're having problems with the faders. What I usually do, if it's a bit dusty in there, is just take a vacuum tube and carefully go over those areas.

Q3. Not sure how to test under present conditions whether my idler tires will work. With the unit disassembled (no bottom cover) I can't really set it on a table and pop in a tape. Need a third hand to hold the unit up on edge. No got, but I don't want to reassemble until I know the idler tires are good. Getting those knobs off was a PIA! So I don't want to go through that again.

Actually, yes, you can do that. Just place something semi-soft underneath it and put it down with the bottom cover off. I used a folded up rubber mattress, so if anything protrudes a bit, it's not going to be a problem. The good news is that everything there is pretty flat and can rest on the "guts". I honestly would have no problem placing the thing on any hard level surface. Then pop in a tape and test.

Q4. I read about using laquer thinner to brighten up discolored (slightly yellowed) plastic transport control buttons. There's no way to remove those button surfaces from the top surface panel (they're plastic welded/riveted on). Any cautions with regard to laquer thinner and the dark surface around those buttons? Maybe just go lightly on the laquer thinner and control the rag to avoid surrounding dark plastic...?

Hm, that's pretty risky and I wouldn't do it unless the buttons would come off (but they don't). I would leave it alone.

 

[Villain S Deeds]

I have 244 problems of my own as posted here: https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=3336351&posted=1#post3336351

I've seen the belts for sale on ebay, but as it says in my thread there, I'm debating whether to get it repaired or just buy another. Maybe both... I love my tape machines.

 

[Tom Overthere]

cjacek ==

Thanks TONS for the detailed advice. I expect to hitch up the dog-sled team tomorrow and make one last local search for faucet washers. If no luck, I'll install the belts and the original idler tires with the idented one switch to the upper assembly where it should cause not trouble.

Fingers crossed

 

[Tom Overthere]

I have 244 problems of my own...I've seen the belts for sale on ebay, but as it says in my thread there, I'm debating whether to get it repaired or just buy another.

See my post on BUYING AND STORING RUBBER BELTS (link)

Vintage Electronics (per my link) ships to Canada. He's in Colorado, USA. I'm in the US, relatively near Colorado. I ordered on Tuesday and the belts arrived on Friday. Instant processing and three-day delivery. The belts are top-quality PRB brand.

Isn't it difficult to "just buy another" these days. At very least, any 244 will require the new belts, so I suggest repairing what you already own.
"Better the devil you know..."

 

[cjacek]

I'm debating whether to get it repaired or just buy another.

At very least, any 244 will require the new belts, so I suggest repairing what you already own.

Spot on. Amen to that.

It seems, tho, that Villain S Deeds' 244 problems are potentially more involved judging by his post. Someone tried repairing the power supply (if I understand correct) and it goes slow speed now. The question is why would someone work on the power supply and screw it up even more?

 

[Tom Overthere]

I hate to admit it, but sometimes it's hard to stop. Something starts to go wrong during a repair, and instead of STOPPING! and coming back for a fresh start later, the tendency is to go for The Bigger Hammer. Has happened to me, but not on anything so delicate as electronics.

Sincerely,
Red Green

 

[Tom Overthere]

I put both belts on and everything works GREAT. Two concerns:

a) The transport is a little noisy in PLAY mode. It makes a mild "whirring" sound as the tape moves past.

b) When I rewind or fast forward to the end of the tape, it hits the end and then "processes" for about 4 seconds before it stops trying. I hear a subtle "zerp..zerp....zerp..zerp....zerp..zerp..zerp" and then the system understands, and stops. I haven't used it in so long that I don't remember if this sound is normal or not.


QUESTION 1: The top surface is not screwed back into place yet.
Could that slight misalignment cause these sounds?


I tipped the unit up on its left edge (no bottom cover attached) so I could see the belts and just one edge of the lower idler tire. I think the "whirring" during PLAY, and the "zerp zerp" at end-of-tape might be related to the idler tires.

I did not replace the idler tires. Both appear to be in excellent shape, except for the slight rotor impression on the lower one. I swapped the tires, upper for lower, and now there's no problem whatsoever in the sound of the recorded audio material. No perceptable WOW or FLUTTER and no "bump bump bump" in the transport like before.

QUESTION 2: Are the PLAY and end-of-tape noises likely due to old idler tires?
Please, nobody say YES unless you're $ure $$




SMALL TRICKS FOR PUTTING CAPSTAN BELT ON

I used an X-acto knife to cut the hard, blue thread-locker material at the edges of the two small screws. Then pushed sideways to break the material from the metal surface. I applied a small amount of ACETONE to each screw and let it sit a few minutes, to break down any locker material under the screw heads. Used a small phillips screw driver and both screws "came owt like budduh." (butter )
See first image below.


Personally, I didn't see any lubrication at the top of the flywheel axle, but I'd been warned about it. Petroleum products can damage some rubbers, so I made a simple protector for the belt from a section of a plastic tea bag envelope. I cut off all but the bottom folded portion, slipped it over the belt and applied a small piece of Scotch tape to hold the edges closed.
See second image below.


Be careful not to loop the belt on the OUTSIDE of post a. After the belt and its protector pass over the top of the flywheel axle, you can just cut the protector off the belt.
See third image below.


The two tiny screws were thread-locked, so I think it's important to lock them again. They turn into threaded metal posts (not plastic) so I put a small dab of Loc-tite #242 BLUE on the threads of each before reinstalling. The BLUE 242 is removeable, just in case.
See fourth image below.

 

[cjacek]

WOW, you're pretty exact when it comes to these things, respecting the gear. I like that. See, that's also the reason why I do the stuff myself and never give it over to some service center. Many so called "techs" don't pay attention to the details and leave a bit of a battlefield inside what they're "servicing". I'm not only interested in the final result but also that all goes carefully and smoothly during the journey.

As to your questions:

(a) I'm not sure what you mean by "whirring" ... Can you put up a sound clip? Tape decks make noises. They're mechanical beasts and the rubber idlers, motors, pinch roller and also cassette tape mechanism isn't dead quiet. Yours may be absolutely normal but try to put up a sound clip if you can. Have you tried working through the play / ff / rew commands without the tape? How does it look in there?

(b) This "processing" is normal. You could see that the idler motor / tires are trying push the tape through and it takes a few sec for the thing to realize it's time to stop.

BTW: Do you have a compact camera with movie / sound modes? Any chance of posting a clip of both (a) (b)?

What do you mean by "Question 1", the "misalignment"?

With regard to "Question 2"... Both issues appear to be normal but I still would like to hear it, especially the "whirring"..........

I CAN tell you that when in PLAY, my 244 does indeed "whir" but that's just normal behavior. See, when in FF / REW modes, observe that the idler tires are moved by the left or right rotation by the motor (above / between the reel tables) and it goes max speed when in those modes. When PLAY / REC modes are used, it is actually the pinch roller pressure which slows down that previously named motor by the use of the idlers (with the one above gliding on the reel table). That is why rubber needs to have proper "grip" and remember that "processing" part? Well, it looks like the rubber is good. Otherwise it would quit working way before end of tape. It's hard to explain this but all looks normal but, again, if you wanna share a sound / video bite.....

 

[Tom Overthere]

My pictures disappeared from my post above.
I went back and reloaded them the "normal" way,
so hopefully they appear now...​

(a) I'm not sure what you mean by "whirring" ... They're mechanical beasts and the rubber idlers, motors, pinch roller and also cassette tape.

It's a distinct, "whirrrrrrrrr." Most obvious on PLAY, less so on FF. Nearly silent on RR. Not sure how to post a video here, but I'll look into it. I thought of doing that already, but hoped you or Dr ZEE would recognize the source of sound and advise me without need for "cinema".

Have you tried working through the play / ff / rew commands without the tape? How does it look in there?

All is well. Capstan is always running, silently. Pinch roller engages on PLAY, not in FF or RR. Everything is running fine. With-a-tape is more noisy than without-a-tape. No doubt, some noise is due to rattling cassette reels.

(b) This "processing" is normal. You could see that the idler motor / tires are trying push the tape through and it takes a few sec for the thing to realize it's time to stop.

Yeah, I recall it always did that, but I don't remember the series of odd noises while it's thinking.

What do you mean by "Question 1", the "misalignment"?

Just that the top cover is merely resting on the metal internal frame (not screwed down again). And the bottom cover is entirely unattached. As a result, the cassette tape might be positioned slightly higher that it would be normally - in relation to the transport path components. Might introduce some slight noise-producing misalignment by not sitting down as much as it should on the "things" that spin the cassette reels.

With regard to "Question 2"... Both issues appear to be normal but I still would like to hear it, especially the "whirring"..........

I'll try tomorrow. I read the rest of your comments but am short on time.


Can you get your pal Dr ZEE to check in on this, too? I think I accidentally pissed him off in a PM I sent him a while back. I was actually paying him a high compliment, but it might have been misinterprated.

 

[cjacek]

Just that the top cover is merely resting on the metal internal frame (not screwed down again). And the bottom cover is entirely unattached. As a result, the cassette tape might be positioned slightly higher that it would be normally - in relation to the transport path components. Might introduce some slight noise-producing misalignment by not sitting down as much as it should on the "things" that spin the cassette reels.

Keep the top cover propped up and away. Insert the tape into the metal internal frame. Otherwise, you might be introducing unwanted issues. You can still easily insert the cassette, push buttons and go through all the operations without the top cover.

A sound mp3 sample should be enough. Just find a hosting site where we can download it. Rapidshare is one.

Will write more later.

 

[cjacek]

It's a distinct, "whirrrrrrrrr." Most obvious on PLAY, less so on FF. Nearly silent on RR.

IMHO, it's very hard to describe sounds with words and thus my suggestion of posting a sound clip. I still say that's best to do. Your understanding of "whirrrrr..." may be different to mine.

Yeah, I recall it always did that, but I don't remember the series of odd noises while it's thinking.

Again, I think it'd be a good idea for us to hear those "odd" noises, from your perspective.

Just that the top cover is merely resting on the metal internal frame (not screwed down again)......

As I mentioned in my previous post that this may indeed be the problem. You should be playing the tape with the top plastic cover off and not resting it on the metal frame.

Can you get your pal Dr ZEE to check in on this, too? I think I accidentally pissed him off in a PM I sent him a while back. I was actually paying him a high compliment, but it might have been misinterprated.

Misunderstandings happen and if you feel that way, I can only suggest that you private message Dr. Zee about it.

 

[Tom Overthere]

Again, I think it'd be a good idea for us to hear those "odd" noises, from your perspective.

Bear with me. I'm attempting a vid .flv as that would be best. If not vid, I'll make an mp3 audio file.

Misunderstandings happen and if you feel that way, I can only suggest that you private message Dr. Zee about it.

Been there. Done that. That's why I asked if you could bring him round... Too bad.

 

[cjacek]

Bear with me. I'm attempting a vid .flv as that would be best. If not vid, I'll make an mp3 audio file.

OK, cool.

Been there. Done that. That's why I asked if you could bring him round... Too bad.

Well, lets just hope he chimes in. Maybe he's just occupied with something else. I don't think forcing him is the answer.

 

[Tom Overthere]

Video Up

I uploaded a VIDEO of my tests of the new belts, so you can hear the sounds. I boosted the volume of the audio 6 dB above what was recorded by my camera. That's a lot, but I wanted to be sure you could hear the audio clearly.

I made a red dot on the white idler tire wheel, at the location of the slight indentation on the rubber tire.

Seems to me the right drive wheel for PLAY and FF is the source of any noise. Or perhaps the relationship between that mechanism and the idler tire assembly...

I don't think the transport used to be so noisy. If it had been, I don't think I could not have recorded right next to it / on top of it.



Is there is a method and a product for LUBRICATING the drive wheel mechanisms?
They work fine, but sound sort of "dry"...

GO HERE TO VIEW THE VIDEO. It's a Windows Media File (.wmv). Click the link and it should download and start playing in your Windows Media Player after about ten seconds (depending on the speed of your internet access).

Let me know what you guys think. Cjacek, I know you'll check it out.
Dr Zee, I'd sure appreciate you making a housecall too, if you have time.

Thanks

 

[cjacek]

Tom, thanks for the video.

The part WITHOUT cassette sounds questionable to me. The high pitch sound is the motor running. Do you recall if that "pitch" was as loud when the top cover was on? I tested mine (with cover on), with ear to the cassette compartment (without cassette) and that high pitch sound is relatively soft compared to yours, which is almost like a siren.

The part WITH cassette is def not good, abnormal. Too bad you can't just test with a set of new rubber tires. I still think they're too soft and may cause problems. Would it fix that noise tho..? It's a bit perplexing but could be answered if a couple of those "tires" were changed to new ones. It's a tough call. Not sure what to suggest. Yes, I have some experience with this but my gut tells me it's the rubber on those tires. It's just too soft (from a previously found dent on them). Would this be the ultimate cause of what's happening?

I don't want to lead you toward an expensive experiment, which may prove futile but it seems the most simple thing to first try is the new tires.

I doubt it's anything to do with lack of lubrication.

Here's a thought... I'll try posting this thread link in the Analog Only forum. More people who can help there.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

New tires, top and bottom, absolutely.

Cheers!

 

[Beck]

The thumping/clicking is just like my 246 sounded before I changed the idler tires a couple years ago. Now it's smooth like new. Somewhere deep in the analog only forum are details of how I changed that and the belts and pinch roller. But since then Dr ZEE put his stuff up with pictures and all... easier to follow than mine.

 

[cjacek]

Jeff, Tim, thank you for looking into this.

What are you thoughts, tho, on the loud high pitched noise? The motor seems to be straining. What is technically causing it? My theory is that the idler rubber is too soft and the motor shaft is digging in too far into the rubber 'causing the strain and fore mentioned issues and, obviously, the dent is causing the thumping (as Tim already mentioned). Am I off?

I've only came across dried out idlers and they've slipped causing tape jamming and premature stopping. I've never experienced too soft a tire and am curious why, when it still grips, it's putting on a show such as the one in the video, meaning the siren like "whine" of the motor?

 

[Tom Overthere]

cjacek ==

It's not really loud, or siren-like. I was very close in with the camera, and as I said, I boosted the audio volume 6dB. That's a considerable increase (3dB doubles perceived loudness), but the whole point of putting up the video was to demonstrate the nature or quality of the sound.

The loudness is a subjective matter, so I can't convey loudness. You'd need some other sound against which to judge it.

Still, I doubt this unit was nearly so noisy back in the day. I can't think of any reason for it, either. It's seen almost NO transport use in all these years. I wonder if the fact that top and bottom covers are off and nothing's screwed down tight might be a factor...?

As for rubber tires being too soft, I doubt that would account for any increased noise. Seems like softer would reduce noises. The rubber on both idler tires feels firm and normal. Maybe it's actually harder than it should be...


Beck and TGoFM ==

Are you guys suggesting that the upper and lower idler wheel assemblys are causing the dry/rough noise, and that replacement should get rid of that noise? Not arguing, but it's another $30 on top of $24 I just spent for belts...

Thanks