ITB Mixing, how good can you get it? (CLA content)

the Legacy actually sounds pretty good at low volumes, with or without an attenuator.

but the best way to get a real recorded amp sound, is by having that cabinet "moving some air".....in which even with an attenuator....you need some serious volume to get the speakers movin'.

if you record an amp with (or without) an attenuator.....youll hear a big difference when it was recorded at bedroom levels, or if you cranked it loud enough even with the attenuator on.

i dont know, theres just some certain magic that happens when its recorded loud. the amp sound just has more body, meat, and 'throw".....you can start to hear the 'sag' a bit, and you can really hear the the notes swell with moving compression.

using a cab impulse doesnt cure this by any means, its still the same static sound that doesnt have any character....but it saves me the time and hassle of multiple real mics and phase issues.......
 
ok, after listening to the latest "mix bed"....its getting close. But everything farview said in his last post (recomendations) are dead on!

i was comparing it to Greendays "Know your enemy" song, and i simply just lowerd that song down to what ever level my mix was and started to A/B the 2.

kick- needs more 'click' and clarity
snare- needs more 'beef and thunk', it already has a crisp top end.
bass- not sure, but i think this may be OK, i dont know if it needs to be brighter. maybe just a tad, but not too important.
dirty guitars - defiantly needs more 'edge' and clarity
hi hat- sounds ok, maybe just a tad more volume
cymbals - a-OK
toms - just a touch more brighter to bring out some more 'snap/attack'

overall, i think the levels of each instrument/track is good. Just a few more minor EQ tweaks.......anyone else think this is gonna get close to a CLA style mix so far?
 
ok made the changes....how we lookin' now?

Listen here

** edit, new mix uploaded. I went in and added the main solo guitar, so now all the tracks are there.
 
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bkkornaker said:
using a cab impulse doesnt cure this by any means, its still the same static sound that doesnt have any character....but it saves me the time and hassle of multiple real mics and phase issues.......
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Doesn't work but saves hassle? You don't see a problem here? You are already in the hole as far as your equipment and rooms Vs CLA's equipment and rooms. If you want to close the gap, there will be hassle.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
Doesn't work but saves hassle? You don't see a problem here? You are already in the hole as far as your equipment and rooms Vs CLA's equipment and rooms. If you want to close the gap, there will be hassle.
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true, very true........BUT.....most of us here dont have that luxury either, after all this is a HOME recording forum. Most of us recording/mixing at home are in the same situation with shitty rooms and low budget gear.

Thats the whole point of this thread...i want to see if (and who) can get close to a CLA style mix with our stuff at home (assuming mostly everyone here uses ITB tools).

I was really hoping other people who have came close to that sound, would chime in and share some thoughts and tips/tricks or experiences.......but it seems as if im the only one here talking about it. I really dont want this thread to be all about "me" and if i can do it. I want other people to come in and say "yes, ive came close....and heres some things i did to get it there using my at home equipment"
 
Chibi Nappa said:
Doesn't work but saves hassle? You don't see a problem here? You are already in the hole as far as your equipment and rooms Vs CLA's equipment and rooms. If you want to close the gap, there will be hassle.
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This.

Also, these parts are notoriously quiet over the weekend, and I can't really listen from my office. So I have no clue.
 
bkkornaker said:
true, very true........BUT.....most of us here dont have that luxury either, after all this is a HOME recording forum. Most of us recording/mixing at home are in the same situation with shitty rooms and low budget gear.
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Then, by that mindset, since this is a HOME recording forum, we shouldn't be striving for the "pro" sound of a favorite producer, because we have to work with shitty rooms and low budget gear.

The alternative is that there "must" be some magical tricks that can make poorly recorded source sounds sound like a top-dollar pro studio, in which case we'd all be running the Waves "Pro Sound" plugin and producing kickass mixes at home, in which case not to knock any of the very talented folks over here, but the Mp3 forum would be a very different sounding place than it is.

Or, you can face up to the fact that a lot of those "hassles" you don't want to deal with are the exact things that these pros you want to sound like ARE doing, and are what MAKE them sound like pros.

Your choice. Either lower your standards or be prepared to put in more work.
 
bkkornaker said:
I want other people to come in and say "yes, ive came close....and heres some things i did to get it there using my at home equipment"
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If you REALLY want my advice?

  • Don't be afraid to move your whole recording rig to get into the "right" room for a sound. On the album I'm working on now, I threw my desktop, my interface, my monitors, a duffel bag of mics, my acoustic, and a ton of mic stands into the back of my car, took a day off work, and drove out to my parents' place to track acoustic guitars in their library (with wooden ceilings, floors, and a fair amount of wood on the walls as well), because while it was a very "live" sounding space it was always one that I'd been pretty impressed how my acoustic sounded in it, and when I threw a mic in front of my acoustic a couple months ago (my dad records on the computer in the library) I was immediately impressed by what I heard. Pain in the ass, yes, but the raw acoustic tracks are something I'm VERY happy with the sound of.
  • Mic up. Turn up. Grab an attenuator if you have to. Try to find time to record when not many people are around to be disturbed, if necessary using vacation time to record during the day, or encouraging your wife/girlfriend to put together a "girl's night out" so you can take an afternoon-evening to record guitars in relative peace at a decent enough volume. If your source sound, the sound coming into the computer, isn't good enough, you're NEVER going to get a sound you're happy with. If you can't record even at moderate volume at your place - say, an apartment with thin floors - then make arrangements to do the tracking somewhere where you CAN - a buddy's place, your parents' place, or even see if you can rent a "vacation home" for a week somewhere isolated and set up your gear there (you might want to warn the landlord that what you're looking for is somewhere you can make noise, and if there are neighbors close by that might be a problem).
  • Getting a good, solid bass guitar tone is crucial for getting a good, solid rhythm bed for your melodic tracks. Something that really helped me was biamping my bass, plugging into a Sansamp RPM preamp and recording both an uneffected DI as well as a direct out from the pre itself, with a bit of distortion on the bass. It sounded awful solo'd, but against the DI track suddenly I had a huge, thick, articulate, relatively even sounding bass sound that really added a lot of impact behind the rhythm guitars. I've (disclaimer, I'm a guitarist, and I write vaguely shred-y instrumental stuff) begun paying a lot more attention to bass these days, and generally START with the bass tracks, because when you're listening in isolation it's much harder to let slight issues that might not jump out at you under the rhythm guitars so much slide, but that by fixing and getting right in the first place will make the whole low end of your mix sound much tighter.

Really, if I've learned anything as a home recording enthusiast over the years it's this - your source sound is going to be the single greatest determinant, like, in the 95-99% range, of how the final product sounds. If you can't get a good raw tracked sound, then you will NEVER put together a "professional" sounding mix.
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
Then, by that mindset, since this is a HOME recording forum, we shouldn't be striving for the "pro" sound of a favorite producer, because we have to work with shitty rooms and low budget gear.
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We shouldn't? Why wouldn't we strive to sound good? if i have sub-par gear and a crappy room, thats not going to stop me from trying to get my mixes to sound good. Im not going to tell myself, "i have crappy gear and a crappy room, so i will not even bother to get my mixes to sound PRO cause i know they will not come out sounding PRO anyways"

DrewPeterson7 said:
Or, you can face up to the fact that a lot of those "hassles" you don't want to deal with are the exact things that these pros you want to sound like ARE doing, and are what MAKE them sound like pros.

Your choice. Either lower your standards or be prepared to put in more work.
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Hassles? Just because i use a cabinet simulator for my guitar tones doesnt mean its a hassle. yes, i would love to crank my amp to insane volumes and stick a mic in front of it, but in a normal quiet suburban home, this is just not ideal. I can think of a ton of PRO sounding mixes that use cab simulators.....hell, i know a bunch of PRO mixes where the guitar tones were not even real at all (line 6 pod, Amplitube, etc)

i dont see why i would want to lower my standards.....that sounds like accepting to be "mediocre" and not striving to be better.....we should all always shot for the top. If you want to do something, shot to be the best......and dont settle for less.
 
bkkornaker said:
We shouldn't? Why wouldn't we strive to sound good? if i have sub-par gear and a crappy room, thats not going to stop me from trying to get my mixes to sound good. Im not going to tell myself, "i have crappy gear and a crappy room, so i will not even bother to get my mixes to sound PRO cause i know they will not come out sounding PRO anyways"



Hassles? Just because i use a cabinet simulator for my guitar tones doesnt mean its a hassle. yes, i would love to crank my amp to insane volumes and stick a mic in front of it, but in a normal quiet suburban home, this is just not ideal. I can think of a ton of PRO sounding mixes that use cab simulators.....hell, i know a bunch of PRO mixes where the guitar tones were not even real at all (line 6 pod, Amplitube, etc)

i dont see why i would want to lower my standards.....that sounds like accepting to be "mediocre" and not striving to be better.....we should all always shot for the top. If you want to do something, shot to be the best......and dont settle for less.
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Listen, man, I'm really not sure how best to explain this to you... But, when you say this:

bkkornaker said:
using a cab impulse doesnt cure this by any means, its still the same static sound that doesnt have any character....but it saves me the time and hassle of multiple real mics and phase issues.......
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...maybe you should stop and wonder that possibly those exact "hassles" as you call them that this CLA bloke goes through that you aren't are why he'll wipe the floor with your mixes every single time.

Acoustical engineering takes a LOT of time and experience to get right, and is a fucking art form. But, at the same time, a mix is only ever going to be as good as the tracks from which its made. If you think your guitar sound is lacking, which clearly you do, then you're not going to be able to "fix it in the mix" and get pro results because the pros DON'T "fix it in the mix." They fix it, period, before they even start mixing.

bkkornaker said:
i dont see why i would want to lower my standards.....that sounds like accepting to be "mediocre" and not striving to be better.....we should all always shot for the top. If you want to do something, shot to be the best......and dont settle for less.
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THIS is the attitude you need to be cultivating, but you need to take it one step further - not only should you not be settling for anything but the best while mixing, and to constantly strive to be a better mixer, you need to also never settle for anything but the best while tracking. Get the absolute best raw tracks you can before you even think about what you're going to do in the mix. Garbage in, Garbage out, you know?

If you want to use a modeler, fine, use a modeler - but, you're clearly not happy with the sound you're getting now, so spend some time thinking about what's missing and what you can do to make it better. Don't just accept it and move on, and wonder why you're never happy with your mixes.
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
Also, these parts are notoriously quiet over the weekend, and I can't really listen from my office. So I have no clue.
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Bro, i do appreciate you taking to time to educate me on all this, and share your thoughts.....but of all this going back and forth......and yet you havent even listend to my mix at all.

you can surly tell me how the "right way" to do it is, .....and i do believe you. but how do you know that my "hassles" sound like crap without even listening to the mix? I never said i wasnt happy with the way i track........
 
bkkornaker said:
you can surly tell me how the "right way" to do it is, .....and i do believe you. but how do you know that my "hassles" sound like crap without even listening to the mix?
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Easy. You started this thread about how frustrated you were you couldn't get that sound. It doesn't matter what I think - YOU'RE not happy with them, and you want to know how you can improve. I think looking at how you track is the obvious starting point.

Similarly, if you think your room sucks, have you looked into any room treatment? There's a ton of tutorials around here on building bass traps.
 
i started the thread as a means to so who got a "at home" mix similar to CLA using ITB tools. My first post never started ranting about how i was frustrated because i cant get my mixes there.....my first post was an open call to anyone who has achieved such a sound at home using ITB tools.

( i then started ranting about how i cant seem to get there once i realized no one was posting anything on this thread......meaning maybe no one has achieved such a feat)

but anyways......YES, you are correct in such TRACKING is important.

But if i send CLA my dry tracks so he could mix it, and me using cab impulse guitars, D/I bass, Sampled drums............its still going to end up sounding like CLA mixed it, right?

i mean, would CLA refuse to mix my tracks because i didnt use real drums, faked cabinet, and a dry D/I'd bass? probably not.......in the end, it would still sound like CLA mixed it.
 
Just as a side-note. And I noticed this a long time ago, so it's not directed specifically at anyone here. But, generally speaking.....

It's amazing to me that people will spend literally thousands of dollars on recording software, a few more thousand on their instruments....yet not a penny on room treatment, and usually very little on monitors.

It's one thing to settle for a "crappy" room and monitors because you simply can't afford it. It's another thing to be able to afford it, yet not even take 20% of the money spent on gear and software to improve arguably the most important parts of the monitoring chain: Room treatment and monitors.
 
Use your ears to determine what a mix needs. Not what you think some other asshole might do. There is no "CLA" formula. He does what works, using his ears to mix music to his tastes.

Use your ears, people.
 
RAMI said:
Just as a side-note. And I noticed this a long time ago, so it's not directed specifically at anyone here. But, generally speaking.....

It's amazing to me that people will spend literally thousands of dollars on recording software, a few more thousand on their instruments....yet not a penny on room treatment, and usually very little on monitors.

It's one thing to settle for a "crappy" room and monitors because you simply can't afford it. It's another thing to be able to afford it, yet not even take 20% of the money spent on gear and software to improve arguably the most important parts of the monitoring chain: Room treatment and monitors.
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Ah yes........

Its a bit of a struggle in this area.

For the most part, i think my monitors are decent (Event 20/20BAS 8") but i have them placed int the worst spots of the room, and with no treatment what so ever.

Im sure you ask yourself why?

Well, once i actually move the monitors in the right spots of the room, spend the $ and alter my room to have it treated properly.......well, now my room looks like a nice/real "mix room" setup. I currently use a spare bedroom as my "music fun room", where i do my recording/mixing. But its not supposed to be a "real mixing room" visually. I dont want to have a guest some spend the night and tell them to sleep in the room thats has speakers in the middle and the place is lined with foam panels.

not only that, i think alot of the people here (on this board) are simply just recording hobbyist and like to mess with music at home, but really dont want to convert a room into something professional.

Why wouldnt they want to do this you ask?

Well, once you convert a room into a real mixing room with foam panels, and moving the monitors in the right spot.......well now you have just that.....a real mixing room! Alot of hobbyist dont want to take it to that level, not for something they maybe they do once on a weekend here or there.....or when time permits after their day job.

I for one, would LOVE to convert my room into something as a "real setup" should be like. But simply the wife doesnt want that (LOL). Surely not worth doing for someone who is a novice/hobbiest who does music occasionally for self indulgence.

i think thats the problem here with alot of folks on this "Home recording forum", its has alot of people who like to record/mix at home simply for self indulgence (not recording/mixing other people, just doing it for their own music for fun).....for i am one of them.

then there are a few 'pro' people who make appearances and posts on this forum who have a real recording/mixing studio and charge $$ for clients. For the most part, they offer great advice........but the fact is.....alot of hobbiests just dont want to convert a room into something that might not get full use out of.

if i was going to open a real recording studio, YES....i would definalty have the room treated and the monitors placed in the right spots. But to convert my spare bedroom?........for something i wont even make $$ from?

naw.....ill pass. the occasional headphones check is fine for me....
 
bkkornaker said:
But if i send CLA my dry tracks so he could mix it, and me using cab impulse guitars, D/I bass, Sampled drums............its still going to end up sounding like CLA mixed it, right?

i mean, would CLA refuse to mix my tracks because i didnt use real drums, faked cabinet, and a dry D/I'd bass? probably not.......in the end, it would still sound like CLA mixed it.
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Probably not, actually. It might sound better than your version of the mix, but it wouldn't sound a thing like that Green Day CD you've been A/B'ing it against. Honestly, man, there's only so much that can be done in the mix. Get the tracks right on input, and you'll be miles ahead.
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
Probably not, actually. It might sound better than your version of the mix, but it wouldn't sound a thing like that Green Day CD you've been A/B'ing it against. Honestly, man, there's only so much that can be done in the mix. Get the tracks right on input, and you'll be miles ahead.
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SOLID TRUTH!

what you just said sums it up perfectly. "Honestly, man, there's only so much that can be done in the mix."

Sorry if we have been dancing around in circles, and i might have came off like a D*&khead.......but your advice is truly appreciated. The above quote kicks ass, and is so true.
 
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