ITB Mixing, how good can you get it? (CLA content)

[Bristol Posse]

ok, so what your sayin is.....if the signal is going into the plugin at -16dbfs and the plugins meters are still reading into the "GREEN", i can push the input knob on the plugin so it eventually is in the YELLOW....and thats what i am supposed to do for optimum level?

i guess what im trying to say is....i want to drive this channel strip plugin so it starts to distort a bit (not much, some analog distortion vibe maybe).

Do i have to adjust the input trim on this plugin so the input meter is in the YELLOW/RED to act like analog distortion........or is it already distorting a little bit while its in the GREEN?

damn this is so confusing.....

Yes If you want the analog distorion push the input a above the green. Again I'm not sure how much Euphonic distortion you get compared to a real desk but according to the plugin blurb it does model the analog response of the consol.

Personally I ignore the dBFS numbers completely when I'm mixing, since I know I tracked at reasonable levels, and go by the LED meters on the Channel strips. But it took me almost a year of having these plugs to figure this all out.

 

[Farview]

All the other plugins ive used so far seem to go by dBfs, even the other modeled compressors.

They are digital, so they will measure the signal level in dbFS. But, in order to accurately emulate the real thing, they have to emulate what happens when you hit it hard. So, since you can't go over 0dbfs, nominal level has to be somewhere below 0dbFS. According to the manual, nominal level is -18dbfs.

 

[noisewreck]

noisewrek - i dont mean it sounds 'small" in a sense of volume, i mean it sounds small in comparison as in "size, weight, overall upfrontness, depth, girth", kinda like you can really FEEL the mix and its overall size is just "BIG" sounding and everything sounds like it sits upfront in your face.

I see. Here's another take on the subject of bigness. It's all about proportions and contrast. If you pay close attention, everything will likely will NOT be in your face. There will be some elements, the important ones, that will.

When everything is BIG, the overall mix ends up sounding small and mushy as all elements start stepping all over each other. So step back and decide what is important. Sometimes even something that's thinner will punch through a dense mix better than some fat multilayered part.

And don't just think this starts during mixing. It starts before even you start to record a single note. Arrangement is everything. Every part needs to be arranged in a way to have it's own space. Pauses, silence in some parts, helps a lot. You can't have everything playing all at once all the time.

Once you get the arrangement down, start working on the tone of each instrument. Decide where they need to be in the overall picture, then work on the sound with that in mind, and then track it. Once you have tracked your parts in this manner, you won't have to work too hard come mixing time to make things fit, as the arrangement and the sounds that you already developed will (or should) work with each other in synergy.

So, to get big, think smaller sounds that complement each other.

 

[CDSoundMaster]

I'll add a few thoughts that might help.
Consider this is all generalized, and though the question might currently be CLA, it will always be someone who is in that position to take the place.

Assuming that the music style and source recording are of a calibre that should be able to stand up for comparison, then I think it is helpful to practice mixing with comparison tracks. The problem is in comparing to something pushing -0.1dB hard-lined and mastered. Since it is pop/rock/adult comtemp, it is also pretty slammed for radio. Not passing judgement, but the sound comes down to giving the impression of it sounding good, not necessarily what is aesthetically the best sound, but what will consistently sound the most common under all conditions.

This is the most common thing that comes up in mixing, and why real mastering will continue to remain relevant and important. Writing and recording well is a talent and so is mixing. But, you don't realize just how difficult a good mix can be to arrive at until doing the multi-listening test.

So, some suggestions:

For outboard analog or analog simulation itb- go for adding some saturation without over-using software compression. Giving a little more vibe and harmonic additive sound to individual tracks will bring the mix a little more in the same range as what is being processed by the comparitive example.

Load 2 or 3 tracks that are the closest to the mix you are working on. But, turn them down at least 6-8dB in your session. Don't try to mix towards volume. Mix towards eq balance, instrumentation, and panning.

Test your mix in a separate mastering session, and you will find that what you are mixing holds up under different conditions. By this I mean that when you hit the right sounding mix, you are also going to find that you are doing less in your diy- mastering.

Study your comp tracks in mono and learn some eq techniques in mono. Simulation of bigness comes from stereo effects, eq, and analog processing that adds saturation that can make wider, bigger elements. It is most common to incorrectly balance eq in mixes to try to get 'that' wide sound. So, when eq'ing, try listening comparitively in mono at least until to reach a technique that you like for your own sound.

For buss groups or master compression, for this particular sound, the group and mains comp tends to be a fast-reacting comp, as does the snare and kick, but guitars, bass, and vocals and perhaps acoustic g. tend to get treated with more harmonic coloration and nicer, smoother sounding analog, at least first before fast compression attack. You have to get the eq of individual tracks down and know how much additive color is the right amount. When you reach the final mix, it should be pretty nice and smooth at around -10dB.

In addition to conditioning sound through analog devices with very small compression changes, also consider re-amping things to give more feel and color. This is usually considered for rhythm guitar, but mixed with other elements like keys and even backing vocals and bass, re-amping and processing outboard can help prepare tracks for better mixing.

Listen to your effects in mono and even better strap a stereo widener effect on the mix just for monitoring, and bring everything in 50% or so. If your reverb gets a lot quieter when 1/2 folded in, you may have too much for the mastering stage if adding widening to the whole mix.

If you can get the radio sound minus about 3-6dB of slammed level and enjoy a more dynamic mix that still sounds big and impressive, you're better off than the final slammed-level version. I recommend always keeping more musical copies of mixes just in case the loudness wars die down and even pop mixing becomes more of the art form again and less of the media race.
You're better off comparing your final mix/master to a master turned down a few dB's.

And of course the obvious- listen on different systems. If you start getting closer in mixing sessions, then make notes of specific instruments that don't sound right and concentrate on addressing that with volume, eq, or compression.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Im sure many of use have tried so hard to get our mixes sounding like the latest Chris Lord Alge radio-ready mix,......... hot, raw, in your face, and PRO sounding. Some have done it, some have failed miserably and gave up saying they cant do it without analog/outboard gear.

For those who have done it, share some thoughts on what needs to be done to achieve such a sound in a ITB world. Any specific plugins that really pushed the mix to the next level? Any specific techniques that made you say "jesus, so thats how its done!?".

CLA converts all of his tracks to 16-bit digital Sony 3348 tape before mixing...so I doubt he's getting a large helping of "analog goodness" while mixing even if he does sum through an SSL. So I'd imagine you could do it ITB.

But I just don't like CLA mixes. At all. So no, I've never succeeded in doing it myself. I'd have to try first.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

i dont think its the tracking thats killing me....

Drums - Steven Slate Drums (sounds already polished out of the box)
Bass- D/I
guitars - 100W tube amp head, running into a impulse response for cab simulation.

Fake drums, DI bass, and simulated guitar? It sounds exactly like it is the tracking that is killing you.

Even something as plastic as a CLA mix starts with real ingredients.

 

[Farview]

Just to further explain the gain staging thing:

dbFS, dbVU, dbU and dbM are all just different ways of measuring signal level. Just because a meter reads a certain one of these doesn't mean the thing the meter is attached to will behave a certain way.

When they design hardware emulation plugins, they have to decide what digital level (dbFS) will represent nominal line level (0dbVU) for the plugin. Things like the 1176, LA2A, etc... are very sensitive to the amount of signal you feed them, so the plugin designers have to build in enough headroom to capture all of the possible ways of hitting the plugin, including hitting it way too hard and distorting the crap out of it. Since you can't feed it a digital signal over 0dbfs, the 'distorting the crap out of it' level has to be a couple db below full scale.

So, if you run your levels close to 0dbfs, the plugins will not behave the same way as when you are running at normal levels and you won't get the same results.

Proper gain staging ITB is just as important as OTB.

 

[Racherik]

The most important part of getting a good mix of any kind is in the first step, which is the tracking. It's not about having the same plug-ins and effects.

Good, pro recorded tracks are recorded in good rooms using good mics with good mic choice/positioning on good players with good instruments recorded by a good tracking engineer.

^^^ This is the key.

One of the first rock songs I ever wrote and recorded came out pretty close to tracking perfection using only the following:

1) Killer Song/Arrangement
2) Yamaha Motif ES7 - Used to build/record the Bass, Drums, Piano, and B3 organ parts.
3) Double Tracked Jackson Guitar w/chorus pedal and JCM800 Marshall recorded using a SM58 mic played by a player with skill.
4) Vocals recorded using SM58 sung by killer Vocalist.
5) Lastly a PC to burn a CD.

Racherik

 

[bkkornaker]

ok, so now this thread is getting really interesting.....this rocks.

last night i sat at the DAW and did a test on a single guitar track (electric guitar -heavy). I knew the recorded signal came in at about -16dBFS, so i have a good normal signal coming in. Now i wanted to do a "zero in = zero out" approach. So i slaped the first plugin on the track....

a "tape simulator" - the signal wasnt pushing the meter into the RED on the input of this plugin, so on the plug i simply turned up the input untill the meter/needle on the plugin was reading right at 0 (im guessing it was 0VU) to get some tape sound pushed hard. i then adjusted the plugins output lower to bring it back down to the original signal to -16dBFS

i then slapped on the SSl channel strip - i checked the input meters on this plugin, and it was already in the YELLOW (im guessing the colored meter does display in VU scale), so no need for adjustments here cause i wanted it to be in the yellow....just started doing some EQing with the plugin. no need to adjust the plugins outputs, seems as if my guitar track was still hovering around -16dBFS

lastly, i slaped on a analog modeled compressor (CL 1B style) - this is what boggles my mind, this plugin has no input/output adjustment knobs, but it does show metering on input/ouput/gain reduction. and the funny thing is, ....the input meter was already +2-3db in the RED. Which now makes sense cause a -16dbFS signal WILL show as +2-3dbUV on an analog compressor.

BINGO.....(lights started going off in my head)

the crazy thing is, i set the compressor (4:1/ slow attack/medium release) with no gain adjustments.....and the gain reduction didnt show any thing going on.....but while it was +2-3 on the meter, this thing sounded GREAT.

point of this post.....now understanding the whole gain monitoring with these crazy analog model plugins, my guitar track went from thin and whimpy to HOLY JESUS FAT BASTARD! although it was a solo'd/single track, i have to see how it will jive with the rest of the tracks.....that ill have to go back into and re-mix from scratch now understanding the whole gain thing.....

****EDIT- after thinking about it some more, i wonder why the SSL channel input metering wasnt in the RED to begin with, maybe they didnt really do a -18dbfs = 0VU conversion, but something else...

also, ill have to see what it sounds like when i adjust the SSL channels output so the CL 1B comp doesnt get hit so hard in the RED. At the time it sounded really slammin.......but i didnt hear what it would sound like if it was riding at 0VU on its input meters

 

[Bristol Posse]

ok, so now this thread is getting really interesting.....this rocks.

last night i sat at the DAW and did a test on a single guitar track (electric guitar -heavy). I knew the recorded signal came in at about -16dBFS, so i have a good normal signal coming in. Now i wanted to do a "zero in = zero out" approach. So i slaped the first plugin on the track....

a "tape simulator" - the signal wasnt pushing the meter into the RED on the input of this plugin, so on the plug i simply turned up the input untill the meter/needle on the plugin was reading right at 0 (im guessing it was 0VU) to get some tape sound pushed hard. i then adjusted the plugins output lower to bring it back down to the original signal to -16dBFS

i then slapped on the SSl channel strip - i checked the input meters on this plugin, and it was already in the YELLOW (im guessing the colored meter does display in VU scale), so no need for adjustments here cause i wanted it to be in the yellow....just started doing some EQing with the plugin. no need to adjust the plugins outputs, seems as if my guitar track was still hovering around -16dBFS

lastly, i slaped on a analog modeled compressor (CL 1B style) - this is what boggles my mind, this plugin has no input/output adjustment knobs, but it does show metering on input/ouput/gain reduction. and the funny thing is, ....the input meter was already +2-3db in the RED. Which now makes sense cause a -16dbFS signal WILL show as +2-3dbUV on an analog compressor.

BINGO.....(lights started going off in my head)

the crazy thing is, i set the compressor (4:1/ slow attack/medium release) with no gain adjustments.....and the gain reduction didnt show any thing going on.....but while it was +2-3 on the meter, this thing sounded GREAT.

point of this post.....now understanding the whole gain monitoring with these crazy analog model plugins, my guitar track went from thin and whimpy to HOLY JESUS FAT BASTARD! although it was a solo'd/single track, i have to see how it will jive with the rest of the tracks.....that ill have to go back into and re-mix from scratch now understanding the whole gain thing.....

****EDIT- after thinking about it some more, i wonder why the SSL channel input metering wasnt in the RED to begin with, maybe they didnt really do a -18dbfs = 0VU conversion, but something else...

also, ill have to see what it sounds like when i adjust the SSL channels output so the CL 1B comp doesnt get hit so hard in the RED. At the time it sounded really slammin.......but i didnt hear what it would sound like if it was riding at 0VU on its input meters

Gotta love those Bingo moments!

I was in a simillar position to you when I got my SSL bundle. I'd have a track I was happy with and then slap what were supposed to be nice plugs on it and it would turn to crap.
Finally when I started thinking of each analog model plugin as a piece of gear and start feeding it the appropriate signal levels...Kapow!. These nice plugs started to sound...well, nice.
As far as the SSL going into the red well a real SSL desk has a lot of headroom before the signal gets completely blown to hell (I've heard people say you could go as high as +20 but it would sound bad). Running a channel on a desk at +2 above 0VU wouldn't being going too deep into the analog head room and so the LED meters will just be starting to read yellow but nowhere near the end of the useable headroom yet.

If you get a gain/RMS meter plug like the sonalkis Free G you can place it between analog emulations to check your RMS levels before each one (especaially if the next plug in the chain doesn't have in input trim), that way you can set the level back to line/nominal level and then gradually start pushing the next emulation plug to see what happens as you hit it progressively harder.

Out of curiosity what Tape saturation plug are you ising, I'm liking the new version of Ferric TDS by Bootsy (and it's FREE!)

 

[bkkornaker]

the tape plugin is "Nomad factory tube/tape warmer", it came with a bundle of analog suite stuff.

its not bad, i dont use the 'tubes" portion of that plugin, i just set it to 30ips and adjusted the input so the needle/meter came to about 0uv on its input. its doesnt really do much other than smooth out the sound....its subtle, but it makes my digital sound a bit more smoother........not bad, and real simple to use.

 

[Farview]

****EDIT- after thinking about it some more, i wonder why the SSL channel input metering wasnt in the RED to begin with, maybe they didnt really do a -18dbfs = 0VU conversion, but something else...

Remember, VU is an average measurment and FS is a peak measurement. So a peak of -16 will not be an average of 0dbvu.

also, ill have to see what it sounds like when i adjust the SSL channels output so the CL 1B comp doesnt get hit so hard in the RED. At the time it sounded really slammin.......but i didnt hear what it would sound like if it was riding at 0VU on its input meters

Remember that it will sound different to turn down the level at the fader than it will at the trim control.

 

[bkkornaker]

Remember that it will sound different to turn down the level at the fader than it will at the trim control.

i was planning on adjusting the output fader on the SSL plugin itself (bottom right corner of GIU),.....would you advise this be the correct way?

 

[Bristol Posse]

i was planning on adjusting the output fader on the SSL plugin itself (bottom right corner of GIU),.....would you advise this be the correct way?

Yes!! adjusting the output fader on the Channel Strip will directly affect the level going into the next plug in
If you have other plugs without input/output trim this can help, you just nsert it in front of the plug and trim the levels to where you want and on the plus side it gives you RMS levels too

and can be found here and is free!
http://www.sonalksis.com/freeg.htm

 

[Farview]

i was planning on adjusting the output fader on the SSL plugin itself (bottom right corner of GIU),.....would you advise this be the correct way?

That depends. If you likethe way the signal is hitting the SSL, then turn down the fader. If you want to change the signal level hitting the SSL, use the trim control.

The trim control changes the signal level before it hits the EQ, compressor and gate. The fader changes the signal level after it goes through everything.

There is also the choice of having the EQ before or after the dynamics on that channel strip. The channel out button is what switches that.

 

[Toto mix]

It is all about the source

Well, maybe not all but if you have a great source than there should not be a big problem mixing it right. you need good ears, monitors and plug ins that work well for you.
A lot of songs you hear on the radio are ITB, but they were recorded with good gear and that makes a lot of difference.
It is a matter of experience as well. Good recording gear makes your life easier.

 

[Bristol Posse]

Well, maybe not all but if you have a great source than there should not be a big problem mixing it right..

NO one's going to argue with that however understanding the gain staging of the plugs ITB once you have captured your good sound can have a major impact when using analog emulations

Case in point is the OPs observations above using the exact same recorded track with the exact same plugins. 1) Not considering plug in gain staging and feeding bad levels to the plugs came out sounding weak and thin vs. 2) Considering correct gain staging and feeding appropriate levlels to the plugs came out HOLY JESUS FAT BASTARD (Which I assume is good )

If you have good, well recorded tracks the hard work then becomes to not f*ck them up by missing something seemingly small that ends up having a huge effect on everything.

In my own experience as an example, my Profire 610 is calibrated to line level based on +4 dBu = -11.9 dBFS however my analog plugs are calibrated to 0 VU = -18dBFS so, even though I was tracking at line level RMS, I was feeding the plugs levels of +6.1 dB RMS above their nominal levels and, often, getting WAY too much simulated analog distortion. And each progressive plug in the chain made it worse as I was potentailly over distorting a signal that had already been over distorted by the previous plug and so on throughout the chain, multiplied by the number of tracks going through an analog emulation plug in chain. Yikes!

It took me forever to figure it out but now that I have a simple trim of the input signal to the plug has really opened up my sound.

If only I'd grasped it before I put out those 2 EPs I'd be a major rock star by now

 

[mshilarious]

It really depends on how the plugs are programmed. When operating in 32 bit float, you can choose to code a plug to behave exactly the same way at any operating point so long as you are happy with a 24 bit precision result. Or you can choose to have the plug treat different operating levels differently.

 

[Farview]

It really depends on how the plugs are programmed. When operating in 32 bit float, you can choose to code a plug to behave exactly the same way at any operating point so long as you are happy with a 24 bit precision result. Or you can choose to have the plug treat different operating levels differently.

Yup. It all depends. But with as many hardware emulation plugins as people are using, you have to gain stage them just like real life.

 

[BLP]

A hip hop song I mixed on AA3 ended up on a local radio station exactly how it left my hands .....it blended right with the others...... i believe the dj at the station live eq'd it or something because it went right with the others.


all i have is a recording booth, AA3, and some decent ears