ITB Mixing, how good can you get it? (CLA content)

I copied this from my Cubase 4 manual:

"4. Adjust the output level of your audio source so that the
meters go reasonably high without reaching 0.0 dB.
Check the numerical peak level indicator below the meter in the bus
channel strip. To reset the peak level indicator, click on it."

But.......

if I'm understanding this thread correctly, I don't want to get my meters in Cubase "reasonably high". :confused:

Or maybe "reasonbly high" is just open for interpretation? :)
 
dastrick said:
I copied this from my Cubase 4 manual:

"4. Adjust the output level of your audio source so that the
meters go reasonably high without reaching 0.0 dB.
Check the numerical peak level indicator below the meter in the bus
channel strip. To reset the peak level indicator, click on it."

But.......

if I'm understanding this thread correctly, I don't want to get my meters in Cubase "reasonably high". :confused:

Or maybe "reasonbly high" is just open for interpretation? :)
Click to expand...
Short answer: It's just bad, outdated advice from people looking at it from a purely digital software perspective.


Long answer: Back when the very first version of Cubase was written, this was decent advice. Mainly because converters were only 16 bit and the 0dbVU reference was -10dbFS. So there was no way to drive your preamps too hard without clipping. They haven't revisited that part of the manual in almost 15 years.

Plus, from a purely digital standpoint, this make sense. So a software company would think that this was good advice. It's all the analog stuff that the software interfaces with that kind of falls apart when you do what they tell you to. Now, with hardware emulations, you need to treat the emulations like you would the actual hardware.
 
ok, here we go....CLA style mix attempt.....

Listen here

While mixing it, i thought it was sounding pretty good! But after giving it a "faux" master attempt, i soon realized how it started to sound thinner with my "faux" mastering.

anyways, give it a listen....and let me know if i got withing the ballpark of a CLA style mix........
 
I'd bring up the rhythm guitars and maybe add some high shelf at about 8k to them. It's hard to tell because they are so buried.

Obviously the lead work is the focus, but I would turn off the solo and get the rhythm tracks to really rock and then add the lead work in.

You have a lot of good sounds, but the volume difference between the drums and lead and the bass and rhythm guitars is too big. That's probably why your 'mastering' is killing it.
 
ok, ive updated the mix....same link as above.

Im still not happy with it though. The snare keeps getting pushed back and thins out (lacks that in your face slammin' body) when i master it. Ive tried to compensate a bit by making the mix "snare up" a lil' bit, but that doesnt seem to help. No matter how hard i push the snare while mixing....during mastering it just keeps getting knocked back to the same buried sound.


damn it....im getting close i think.....maybe? thoughts?
 
I'm in session right now, so I can't listen. But, my advice is to stop trying to master it.

Get the mix right first, then worry about mastering. Mixing and mastering are two completely different skill sets that require different tools and different listening environments.

From what you are describing, your mix has too much dynamic range. That's why when you compress the mix, the snare turns to crap.
 
Brighten up the clean chorused guitars. Add some high shelf and some 3-4k.

The solo is too loud, which is making you turn the snare up.

The kick and toms need more highs. In fact, just about everything except the cymbals and the lead needs to be brighter. Brighter seems more in-your-face than murky.

It sounds like you have compressed the cymbals or something. They are just all over the place and transparent at the same time. They are also too loud. If there is a room mic, turn it down.

The reason the snare jumps out like that is because it is the only thing with a lot of 2k in it. Everything else seems kind of scooped out and the snare is all by itself in the frequency range. You could try to scoop out some 2k on the snare and see if it fits a little better.
 
Before even reading your post, I realized this mix was absolute crap. I've already started re-mixing.....yet again. Thanks for taking the time to help out in all this.
 
ok, ive updated the mix, and about 70% done with it (same mix link above)

The Bass really needs attention still. Its very loud and still bassy as hell. The Hi-hats/cymbals are still very transparent sounding (over compressed).

is this moving in the right direction?
 
Kind of.

Turn off the solo for now. Focus on the music bed.

In fact, start with just the drums. Get the drums to sound like a drum set. Then add the bass. Get the drums and bass to work together. Don't be afraid to compress the crap out of the bass. It really just sounds too loud in the latest mix and the kick is getting stomped on by it. (probably a level issue)

Just work on getting the drums and bass to really rock together. Don't worry about everything else yet.
 
St Charles

Farview said:
Kind of.

Turn off the solo for now. Focus on the music bed.

In fact, start with just the drums. Get the drums to sound like a drum set. Then add the bass. Get the drums and bass to work together. Don't be afraid to compress the crap out of the bass. It really just sounds too loud in the latest mix and the kick is getting stomped on by it. (probably a level issue)

Just work on getting the drums and bass to really rock together. Don't worry about everything else yet.
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Hey Farview

Just noticed you are from St Charles, Illinois.

I am English and live in Oxford but I lived in St Charles and went to school at St CHarles High School a long time ago, 1973 and 1974. My father worked at Fermilab and I had a few freinds in some good bands in the neighbourhood especially in Elgin all those years ago.

Just thought I would say Hi.

Roger
 
bkkornaker said:
I was A/Bing my mix (did a faux master to bring up to -9RMS using Slate Digital FG-X limiter/loudness plug) to compare to the CLA finished mix.
Click to expand...

Instead of bringing your mixes up to his volume level, turn his mixes down to your volume level. That way your mixes won't have to go through a level (or several levels?) of squashing using suboptimal plugs and techniques to get to a similar volume level.
 
rog999 said:
Hey Farview

Just noticed you are from St Charles, Illinois.

I am English and live in Oxford but I lived in St Charles and went to school at St CHarles High School a long time ago, 1973 and 1974. My father worked at Fermilab and I had a few freinds in some good bands in the neighbourhood especially in Elgin all those years ago.

Just thought I would say Hi.

Roger
Click to expand...
My wife went to St. Charles High School too (about 10 years after you). I actually live outside of town,right near Wasco. You wouldn't recognise anything out this way, I've only lived here for 10 years and it's completely different.
 
bkkornaker said:
ok, im building out the "mix bed"....

heres the mix without any mastering

No solo guitars and no synths/pads.
Click to expand...
That's pretty close. Your monitors must be pretty bright, because this mix is really dark. It all works in context, but it will never be in your face enough without more upper midrange and highs.

What ever you are adding for highs on the kick, add another 6db. Add another 3db to the toms. Leave the snare and cymbals alone.

Why does the high hat seem so far away? Is there a mic on it?

Add 6db of high shelf at 8k to the guitars.

Add 3 or 4 db of 2-3k to the bass.

CLA mixes are really, really bright
 
Farview said:
That's pretty close. Your monitors must be pretty bright, because this mix is really dark. It all works in context, but it will never be in your face enough without more upper midrange and highs.

What ever you are adding for highs on the kick, add another 6db. Add another 3db to the toms. Leave the snare and cymbals alone.

Why does the high hat seem so far away? Is there a mic on it?

Add 6db of high shelf at 8k to the guitars.

Add 3 or 4 db of 2-3k to the bass.

CLA mixes are really, really bright
Click to expand...

WOW.....this is alot of brightening. On all the tracks im EQ'ing and then compressing so i can do some radical EQ changes.........but the electric guitars already are boosted 12db at 8k (SSL channel). Really add more?

I do agree that the mix overall is still a bit dull, but im so surprised how dull it sounds even though alot of things are being boosted already with a shit ton of highs as it is.

Ill go in and add more i guess.

i think the hi hat sounds so far away cause its 'closed" for the most part, and all you can really hear is the 'tick' sound from it. I can still bring it up some (volume)....

So it sounds as if i got the "leveling" down ok....but now its just some changes EQ wise to brighten things up some more.......

----my monitors are not really bright (Old Event BAS active monitors 8"), but my room absolutely sucks. I have no treatment what so ever, and one of the monitors is in the corner of the room (weird bass issues and phasey cause of this). So from time to time i have to mix (check) on closed headphones just for a sanity check.......
 
bkkornaker said:
hes pretty much the GO TO mixing guy for top rock artists....

his recent mix credits include .....

green day -american idot,
paramore - brand new eyes,
deftones - diamond eyes (only the single)
seether - finding beauty in negative spaces
Daughtry - leave this town
Stone temple pilots - (new 2010 album)
my chemical romance - the black parade
Click to expand...

Ahh. That explains rather nicely why I've never heard of the guy. :)

Chibi Nappa said:
Fake drums, DI bass, and simulated guitar? It sounds exactly like it is the tracking that is killing you.

Even something as plastic as a CLA mix starts with real ingredients.
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Pretty much. What's the 100 watt head? Impulses are getting better, but they still don't sound QUITE like a good mic'd up cab. They'll do in a pinch, but I guarantee you they're not what this CLA guy is doing.
 
the head is a Carvin Legacy (Steve Vai model), and am using a power attenuator with it. But i didnt want to mic it up cause with Cab impulses , it just gave me alot more options instead of just using my mics.

the impulses im using is a blend of a U87 (about 3-4 in back/ center of dust cap) and a Sm57 up close, where the dustcap and cone meet........and a tiny bit of room mic (a few feet away)

CLA likes to do the simple 'slap a SM57 on the dustcap/cone meet right up on the grill, and crank the crap out of the amp loud!'.......as does most recording/mix engineers do.

i just cant crank the amp loud enough without it shaking the house down. after all, this is a HOME recording forum.....LOL.
 
bkkornaker said:
CLA likes to do the simple 'slap a SM57 on the dustcap/cone meet right up on the grill, and crank the crap out of the amp loud!'.......as does most recording/mix engineers do.

i just cant crank the amp loud enough without it shaking the house down. after all, this is a HOME recording forum.....LOL.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but with an attenuator you can get surprisingly close. My poison of choice is a Mesa Rectifier Roadster head running into a Recto 2x12, and with a Hot Plate I can get some pretty damned good sounds out of it at apartment-safe levels. I don't know how volume-sensitive the Legacy is (the Roadster actually sounds pretty good at low volume, which definitely helps), but especially if you're after the sound of a guy who mostly uses a SM57 up against the grill, then that's probably the way to go.

At the VERY least, it's worth a try. It takes a while to get the hang of micing up an amp, but it's worth doing.
 
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