64 bit audio export

[Farview]

It's far too early to do the math but I do recall 32 bit floating point math has something like 1500db of dynamic range. That should really put your noise floor down far enough.
Taking up twice the hard drive space (and throughput) and twice as many cpu cycles doesn't seem worth it.

 

[Middleman]

I would submit that this is advertising fluff. It really doesn't stand up to technical scrutiny.

I would submit that its easy to make an ambigous statement not having any technical tests you can provide to disprove it.

I built a Dual Core machine with 2GB of RAM to take advantage of the 64 bit architecture Sonar has. I can tell you for a fact that their claim about clarity especially around reverb tails is absolutely true. With the 64 bit engine engaged the reverb tails are long and very smooth with more of a natural decay than the 32 bit engine on the same mix. They hang in the soundfield with less smearing and are a detail seperate from the dry portion of the source.

Digital technology is still in its infancy, 16 or 24 bit is not the end of the road quality and imagewise.

 

[AGCurry]

I would submit that its easy to make an ambigous statement not having any technical tests you can provide to disprove it.

I built a Dual Core machine with 2GB of RAM to take advantage of the 64 bit architecture Sonar has. I can tell you for a fact that their claim about clarity especially around reverb tails is absolutely true. With the 64 bit engine engaged the reverb tails are long and very smooth with more of a natural decay than the 32 bit engine on the same mix. They hang in the soundfield with less smearing and are a detail seperate from the dry portion of the source.

Digital technology is still in its infancy, 16 or 24 bit is not the end of the road quality and imagewise.

What you can tell me "for a fact" is so subjective I really don't know how to respond. I have a bachelor of science degree in computer information systems, but I guess facts don't mean much in this topic... so I'll give up.

 

[dirtythermos]

If an audio sample takes 24 bits (three bytes), it doesn't sound change the sound one iota to process it in a 64-bit word. You still only have 24 bits of information.

Having more bits allows you greater precision in computation. Consider this operation on a 7-digit precision floating point system*:

1234.567 + 45.67844 = 1280.245
1280.245 + 0.0004 = 1280.245

However:

45.67844 + 0.0004 = 45.67884
45.67884 + 1234.567 = 1280.246


See how the confines of the floating point system introduce error in computations? That's why a 64-bit engine is important - even though the input is 24 bits and the output is 24 bits, having extra bits to do the processing can reduce error.

*example borrowed from wikipedia, where there are more great examples of loss of precision in floating-point arithmetic.

 

[AGCurry]

Having more bits allows you greater precision in computation. Consider this operation on a 7-digit precision floating point system*:

1234.567 + 45.67844 = 1280.245
1280.245 + 0.0004 = 1280.245

However:

45.67844 + 0.0004 = 45.67884
45.67884 + 1234.567 = 1280.246


See how the confines of the floating point system introduce error in computations? That's why a 64-bit engine is important - even though the input is 24 bits and the output is 24 bits, having extra bits to do the processing can reduce error.

*example borrowed from wikipedia, where there are more great examples of loss of precision in floating-point arithmetic.

I'm familiar with precision and loss thereof, having programmed in C for 18 years. However, a double-precision floating-point type occupies 64 bits - two words in a 32-bit machine - AND HAS DONE SO FOR YEARS, since the advent of 32-bit-word machines.

Unless the Cakewalk software was using the single-precision "float" datatype previously - which is highly unlikely - there is no change in computational precision.

 

[Middleman]

Ok, let's say your are right. Then there is no reason for a small company like Cakewalk to invest millions of dollars in development for 64 bit engine. In fact Microsoft too has wasted a lot of years of development in pushing a 64 bit OS. Intel too must be a culprit because, heck why do we need a 64 bit architecture because AGCurry says its all markting fluff and there is no inherit value in 64 bit.

You must be a visionary....

 

[Farview]

In fact Microsoft too has wasted a lot of years of development in pushing a 64 bit OS. Intel too must be a culprit because, heck why do we need a 64 bit architecture because AGCurry says its all markting fluff and there is no inherit value in 64 bit.

64 bit precision and 64 bit archetecture are two mutally exclusive ideas. The reason for a 64 bit OS is throughput, not precision. Instead of making faster processors, you make them wider so it eats bigger chunks at the same speed.

 

[Middleman]

They are but the software is designed to utilize the hardware.

 

[Farview]

They are but the software is designed to utilize the hardware.

But they could design the software to do 32 bit calculations on a 64 bit OS or 64 bit calculations on a 32 bit OS. The two don't go hand in hand and are not dependant on each other to work.

This is why it looks like fluff, they seem to be wording things in such a way as to capitalize on the general lack of understanding of how all this works and fits together.

 

[AGCurry]

they seem to be wording things in such a way as to capitalize on the general lack of understanding of how all this works and fits together.

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Middleman]

They are doing exactly what you say but they provide two versions on their disk. A 32 bit version which has a 64 bit double presicion engine switch but also a 64 bit native version. It's not marketing fluff.

Here is all the data I could find to bring you guys up to speed. Throw all the darts you like.

SONAR 6 includes both a 32-bit version for Windows XP and a 64-bit version for use with Windows XP Professional x64 Edition. Experience 20-30% processing performance gains and access up to 128 GB of RAM on x64

Deliver productions at virtually any bit-depth, and sample rate (up to 64-bit, 500 kHz). Ensure pristine quality with POW-r dithering and Windowed Sinc sample rate conversion. Native 64-bit audio is the highest quality in the industry.

Mix with superior sonic clarity using SONAR’s industry-first, end-to-end, 64-bit double precision floating point mix engine (accessible on 32-bit computers).

Work natively with 64 bit audio, streaming 64 bit audio tracks end-to-end through your mixes.

SONAR 6 also features native support for 64-bit floating point audio files, allowing you to import, stream, and render tracks and mixes at the highest quality available in the industry.

SONAR In Review: Welcome to the World of 64-Bit Audio Engines
—Mix Magazine, September 2006
“As the first true 64-bit DAW, SONAR brings Windows users to the forefront of digital audio.”

“Listening to the 64-bit system proved to be satisfying and impressive. My mix had more detail and depth, and the image was better than when I played it on other DAWs.”

“I chalked this up to the extra dynamic headroom provided by the 64-bit system. The mix wasn’t as one-dimensional—rather, closer to what I usually encounter by summing through an analog desk. To be honest, it was the best that mix has ever sounded on a DAW.”

“The way I see it, the future of audio on a computer is here. The 64-bit leap is audible, improves performance and is the next logical step. Even if you remain in the 32-bit realm, you can still take advantage of the 64-bit mix engine.”

Why use multiple PCs when you can do it all in one? SONAR’s engine is optimized to take advantage of the latest multi-processor PCs and multi-core processors—including Intel®’s new Core2Duo. SONAR intelligently balances the processing load across all available resources guaranteeing you exceptional performance.

64-Bit Computing—Key Benefits for Musicians

SONAR 6 provides significant advantages to musicians when running Windows XP Professional x64 Edition on native 64-bit Intel or AMD processor-based workstations.

SONAR 6 experiences a significant processing performance increase which varies depending on your particular application. Benchmarks have shown improvements of 20-30%.

The increase in processing performance can result in more simultaneous tracks, realtime effects, and virtual instruments, along with closer to real-time latency for mixing and performance.

The x64 platform allows for access to up to 128 GB of RAM, an exponential increase from the 4 GB of RAM afforded by yesterday’s 32-bit computing platform.

The increase in system memory can result in the loading of larger, higher-quality sample content into RAM, increasing the amount of content capable of being used in any given project, while also reducing the latency introduced by disc streaming.

http://www.cakewalk.com/x64/default.asp - 64 bit resource page.

 

[Farview]

SONAR 6 includes both a 32-bit version for Windows XP and a 64-bit version for use with Windows XP Professional x64 Edition.

They would have to, a program looking for a 64 bit processor won't work on a 32 bit machine.

Experience 20-30% processing performance gains and access up to 128 GB of RAM on x64

This has to do with the machine, not so much the program.

Deliver productions at virtually any bit-depth, and sample rate (up to 64-bit, 500 kHz). Ensure pristine quality with POW-r dithering and Windowed Sinc sample rate conversion. Native 64-bit audio is the highest quality in the industry.

Deliver them to who? Only other people with Sonar will be able to listen to it until everyone else catches up.

Mix with superior sonic clarity using SONAR’s industry-first, end-to-end, 64-bit double precision floating point mix engine (accessible on 32-bit computers).

Work natively with 64 bit audio, streaming 64 bit audio tracks end-to-end through your mixes.

SONAR 6 also features native support for 64-bit floating point audio files, allowing you to import, stream, and render tracks and mixes at the highest quality available in the industry.[/qoute]These three bullet points say the same basic thing worded differently. They are padding the list of features.

SONAR In Review: Welcome to the World of 64-Bit Audio Engines
—Mix Magazine, September 2006
“As the first true 64-bit DAW, SONAR brings Windows users to the forefront of digital audio.”

“Listening to the 64-bit system proved to be satisfying and impressive. My mix had more detail and depth, and the image was better than when I played it on other DAWs.”

“I chalked this up to the extra dynamic headroom provided by the 64-bit system. The mix wasn’t as one-dimensional—rather, closer to what I usually encounter by summing through an analog desk. To be honest, it was the best that mix has ever sounded on a DAW.”

“The way I see it, the future of audio on a computer is here. The 64-bit leap is audible, improves performance and is the next logical step. Even if you remain in the 32-bit realm, you can still take advantage of the 64-bit mix engine.”

Why use multiple PCs when you can do it all in one? SONAR’s engine is optimized to take advantage of the latest multi-processor PCs and multi-core processors—including Intel®’s new Core2Duo. SONAR intelligently balances the processing load across all available resources guaranteeing you exceptional performance.

OK, interesting opinions. I would like to hear the difference.

64-Bit Computing—Key Benefits for Musicians

SONAR 6 provides significant advantages to musicians when running Windows XP Professional x64 Edition on native 64-bit Intel or AMD processor-based workstations.

SONAR 6 experiences a significant processing performance increase which varies depending on your particular application. Benchmarks have shown improvements of 20-30%.

The increase in processing performance can result in more simultaneous tracks, realtime effects, and virtual instruments, along with closer to real-time latency for mixing and performance.

The x64 platform allows for access to up to 128 GB of RAM, an exponential increase from the 4 GB of RAM afforded by yesterday’s 32-bit computing platform.

The increase in system memory can result in the loading of larger, higher-quality sample content into RAM, increasing the amount of content capable of being used in any given project, while also reducing the latency introduced by disc streaming.

These are all advantages of having the machine, (and obviously the compatable software) not necessarily the software itself. As soon as Cubase releases a 64 bit compatable version, those users will benefit from the same hardware advantages.

 

[Reggie]

access up to 128 GB of RAM on x64

Whoa, my harddrive is only 120GB!!

 

[Middleman]

Deliver them to who? Only other people with Sonar will be able to listen to it until everyone else catches up.

Mastering houses are very interested in obtaining and working at the highest bit depth.

 

[Farview]

Mastering houses are very interested in obtaining and working at the highest bit depth.

Mastering houses would need to be equipped with Sonar in order to open the file. If the mastering house uses analog equipment, they will still have to dither down to 24 bit to get out of the converters. If they master completely in the digital domain, they will have to master in Sonar. This isn't impossible, but not normally the mark of a fine mastering house.

 

[Middleman]

Ok, so the issue you are having here is whether Sonar is a professional environment or not. You won't admit that these guys have jumped up in the industry with some superior technology. I can't argue against your unwavering opinion.

I was just up at The Plant in Sausalito; they do a lot of mastering. Their engineer indicated to me personally that he was going to take a look at Sonar because of its 64 bit capability. I also talked to Terry Howard, Grammy award winning engineer for Ray Charles at the AES show in San Fran yesterday. He moves all of his projects from Pro Tools to Sonar to take advantage of its 64 bit capability during the mix. He told me that it provides more depth and width in the soundstage than mixing in 32 bit. This is especially true as you build up large projects beyond 24 tracks according to him. I think this indicates that the industry is looking toward Sonar.

I don't think any information I provide at this point is going to open your mind to some new possibilities.

 

[Farview]

Ok, so the issue you are having here is whether Sonar is a professional environment or not.

Not at all. However, you will have to go a long way to convince me that Sonar is a superior mastering environment. I prefer places that do most of their mastering in the analog domain.

How does the 64 bit version of Sonar deal with things like the UAD card? (or other popular plugins). I'll grant you that the 64 bit summing would be better, but wouldn't trying to keep everything 64 bit limit you to the plugins that came with Sonar?

 

[Middleman]

Sonar would probably never be the mastering environment just a frontline for opening 64 bit files and possibly dithering although probably not. Although, most mastering facilities have a combination of analog and digital for working on a session. Mastering guys like to start at the highest bit depth you can provide and take it down to final form. Seriously, I don't expect many mastering labs to run out and convert unless they find an inherent advantage in sound. Time will tell.

Regarding UAD that is the big hold up. They will have 64 bit drivers in the next rev 4.5 coming out, according to their staff booth at AES before December. Older 32 bit plugs have something called Bit Bridge in Sonar which allows 32 bit plugs to run in a native 64 environment, I have heard with mixed results. I will be testing these waters when UAD ships their driver. My soundcard, LynxIIA already has final bits for 64 and I have Vista RC1. As soon as the UAD drivers ships, I know several people that are making the total 64 bit jump.

 

[Farview]

Sonar would probably never be the mastering environment just a frontline for opening 64 bit files and possibly dithering although probably not.

It would have to be where it is dithered, who else with make a dither-er that jumps from 64bit to 24bit? Converters are still only 24 bit.

When the UAD stuff comes out, let us know how it works. It would suck if you ended up only being able to run half the plugins. Hell, if that was the case, if you were running 96k 64 bit, one dreamverb would bring the card to it's knees. Maybe they will (finally) come out with a card that has more DSP.

 

[AGCurry]

I really do give up. The incomprehension is staggering.