Zildjian zbt's prone to cracking?

  • Thread starter Thread starter breeeeza
  • Start date Start date
my drummer has broken COUNTLESS zildjian Z and A customs.

he is a pretty big guy though and we do tend to move a bit... :)
 
iancl said:
I've heard that all Paiste cymbals are sheet.
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nope nope nope nope!

just the PST series, Alpha's, and the old 302, 502, and 802 series. (i think that's it...)

i have signatures, bought em used, no problems at all.. then again, i dont really bash my cymbals too bad.
 
SpotlightKid83 said:
what about sabian b8's??? cast or sheet??
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Sheet. All the cheap cymbals from all the companies are sheet.
Rule of thumb: If the series comes in a discouted "cymbal pack" it's cheap shit stamped out of a sheet. Beginner cymbals.
 
Farview said:
Sheet. All the cheap cymbals from all the companies are sheet.
Rule of thumb: If the series comes in a discouted "cymbal pack" it's cheap shit stamped out of a sheet. Beginner cymbals.
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You can get sabian aa and aax and other's cymbal packs.
 
breeeeza said:
You can get sabian aa and aax and other's cymbal packs.
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Not discounted. Those aren't the ones that GC keeps blowing out for $110 every month.
 
breeeeza said:
I can get a pieste alpha 18" rock crash ( which sounds perfect to me) for £100 but im afraid that it might break and paiste only give 12 months warranty where as the sabian aa metal x 18" crash whoich sounds damn good aswell is £152 but this comes with 3 yrs warranty i think. so..
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100 notes for an alpha

blimey what a rip off

& I agree with what's being said if you manage to break higher caliber cymbal makes, then seriously look into your technique

I can hold my hands up & say "I've never cracked a cymbal in 23 years"

I've never liked the sabians I've played & generally look at zildjians for my own kit sets

& if you plan on spending serious money on cymbals don't look at crap try & get the best you can get

I have a ZXT trashformer but only because it sounds nuts (& was cheap)
 
First off...if I'm repeating corrections addressed by others...forgive me. I went through this quickly.

breeeeza said:
sabian aa or sabian aax cause i have heard that they dont break and you get 3 year warranty on them anyway.
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iancl said:
I'm almost certain none of the big three offer more than 12 months.
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All SABIAN cymbals are covered by a one(1) year warranty, except Hand-Hammered, HHX, and Artisan, which are covered for two(2) years. It should also be noted that All SABIAN cymbals and percussion purchased by an education institution are covered for two(2) years regardless of series.

Blue Groove said:
Brand has nothing to do with it. Sheet cymbals will break more easily than cast. Period.
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Not necessarily. Generally sheet cymbals are less durable than cast because of an inherent characteristic of the molecular structure, but when well-made and well-played, sheet bronze cymbals can last as long as any cymbal.

breeeeza said:
Do you know what the paiste alpha's are? Sheet or cast? Thanks
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SpotlightKid83 said:
what about sabian b8's??? cast or sheet??
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Sheet.

TragikRemix said:
sheet cymbals are all low end...paiste Signature, traditional, etc. are better 'cast' cymbals.
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All Paiste cymbals and gongs are "sheet bronze"...made from discs cut by outside contractors. This includes the Signature and Traditional lines...all Paiste cymbals.
 
From the paiste faq:

paiste.com faq said:
How are Paiste cymbals produced?

1. middle of cymbal is fired
2. bell is pressed into the cymbal
3. cymbal receives a hole
4. disks entering firing oven
5. raw disk with bell and hole
6. pneumatic hand hammering
7. pneumatic hand hammering
8. hand hammering at anvil
9. lathing floor
10. hand lathing
11. checking shape during hammering
12. truing on level steel surface
13. shape control by hammering forema
14. checking thickness during lathing
15. brand name and model silk screening
16. edges are made smooth
17. testing production output
against master cymbals

We produce our cymbals today the same way we have for over half a century. Paiste's manufacturing philosophy is simple: we believe that only a human being has the intuition and abilities to create superior musical instruments. We allow the use of mechanical devices only where they remove strenuous labor from our instrument artisans, allowing them to concentrate their talents and energy on creating instruments of the highest sound quality and consistency. Any automation removing human control from the manufacturing process is strictly forbidden, as automation is counterproductive to a natural sound and our desire for top quality.

Beginning with the master cymbals carefully created by Sound Development, our production team then painstakingly works to craft exact copies of those master instruments. This ensures the ultimate in consistency and quality.

The majority of our cymbals are produced using Paiste's traditional production process. First the center of the cymbal is heated to soften the metal, then a bell is pressed into its middle. Some cymbals are sent through a high temperature oven in order to heat the entire disk. A hole is then punched through the center of the bell. (1-5)

The main production step involves the hammering of our cymbals by hand. To conserve the artisans' energy, we utilize a pneumatic hammering device in the initial shaping of the cymbal. At this stage the hammer operator has the ability to control velocity, force and other important parameters. The final shape corrections are then done by hand using only a hammer and anvil. (6-8)

Hand lathing with a sharp steel maintains the precise, correct thickness throughout the cymbal. Paiste's specifications do not allow for variations greater than a fraction of a hair's width (5/100 mm). (9-10)

Quality control procedures are implemented frequently throughout the production process. The precise shape of the cymbal is checked numerous times during production hammering. Great care is taken to balance the cymbal within itself by truing it on a precisely level steel surface. A micrometer is utilized during hand lathing to carefully control the instrument's thickness. (11-14)

The finishing touches are then applied by smoothing the cymbal's edges, stamping brand trademarks and model designations on the instrument and then coating it with a special protective solution to prevent oxidization. (15-16)

The final - and arguably most important - step in production is to hand test each and every finished cymbal against the master instruments produced by Sound Development. If a cymbal does not conform to Paiste's exacting standards, it is then destroyed. Only instruments of perfect quality and consistent sound character will be shipped and sold to our customers. (17)
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so what is that telling us, are the sheet or cast?!?

OR both?
 
TragikRemix said:
so what is that telling us, are the sheet or cast?!?

OR both?
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Casting implies pouring molten metal into a mold that is roughly the shape of your finished product. Nowhere in their description do they mention this process. It seems that they heat the center part of the disk, to make it pliable & to facilitate easier shaping of the bell, then hand-hammer the rest. That's not to say that none of their cymbals are made by a casting process, just that they don't mention it as part of their manufacturing.
 
so they are hand hammered sheet cymbals??

thats very odd.

typically, sheet= punch out, insert in box, sell.

cast usually involves all of the beating..
 
Paise cymbals are sheet. Don't get wrapped up in the semantics about what defines an alloy and how at some point the metal is 'cast', blah-blah-blah. Bare in mind 'cast' and 'sheet' are marketing terms, used only to identify two basic processes. 'Cast' cymbals are not cast into the shape of cymbals, and 'sheet' cymbals are made from metal that is cast. It's a game of semantics, but the big difference is in the amount of tin.

Because it's only 8 percent tin, 'sheet' bronze is more malleable and can be extruded(cast) into large plates from which several blanks can be punched. This is good for consistency because the entire plate is tempered and homogenized at one time, meaning the indivdual cymbals are going to have more consistent properties. With B20...20% tin, the metal is very hard and cannot be extruded. The bronze is poured into individual blobs called ingots. Each ingot will be repeatedly rolled and thinned into one blank. They are then shaped and tempered individually.

It is this distinction...individual tempering vs tempering as a whole sheet...that accounts for the reputations associated with each production type. The sound of cast cymbals vary signficantly even with 'identical' models, while sheet cymbals tend to be more consistent.

Regardless of what you want to call them, there is a fundamental difference between cymbals produced from pre-formed plates and those produced from individual castings. It's not about quality, but there IS a difference in the molucular structure and potential for sound...the range.

All Pasite cymbals are produced from precut discs supplied by external fabricators. You will notice their first step: 'middle of cymbal is fired'....
That should actually read 'middle of flat disc is fired'...as at this point is is not a cymbal.

That REMO link by the way...my words...copied and pasted from the PEARL board. http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/showthread.php?p=1851020249&highlight=cookies#post1851020249
 
TragikRemix said:
so they are hand hammered sheet cymbals??
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Not exactly...again Paiste takes it upon themselves to redefine widely accepted terms to better suit their manufacturing process. What they call "hand hammered", actually means... a hand-held pheumatic impact tool.
 
well, i love paiste cymbals even though they have to be weird about what the hell the actually are!
 
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There's nothing wrong with Paiste...quality stuff.
Good cymbals...questionable marketing.
 
Be careful about playing in cold conditions as well, even if you don't hit very hard. My band played an outdoor Halloween festival thing last year, and while it wasn't absolutely frigid, it was still pretty cold. I remember before we played I kept thinking "man, I'm gonna miss my paragon crash" (I used to ride on it a lot). Sure enough, after the show it was cracked. I don't really play that hard, either, but cold does bad things to metal.
 
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