Your thoughts on melodies and chords

T

tonyoci

New member
Just wondering how others work on this.

I am quite capable of working out a chord progression and coming up with a, usually, simple melody. After a while though this gets pretty boring.

I am also capable of singing a good melody to some lyrics but without musical training I don't know what notes I'm singing and hence it becomes very difficult to add chords.

Does anyone have any tips or pointers to reading or anything that could help with this ??

Thanks

Tony
 
You just need to do some reading up on basic music theory. There are plenty of books on the subject, or I'm sure you could find a lot just by searching on line.

Musicians use numbers in reference to chords (Roman numerals) and notes (regular numbers) as a way of easy transposition.

For example, if you're in the key of C, you would say C major is the "I" chord. (Upper case Roman numerals are used for major chords, lower case for minor.) The rest of the chords in the key are numbered by moving through the musical alphabet, given the appropriate Roman numeral. So...

Dm would be ii, Em would be iii, F would be IV, G would be V, Am would be vi, Bdim would be viidim. (Normally a little circle is used instead of "dim," which is short for "diminished," but I don't know how to type it on this computer, since it's a laptop and doesn't have a number pad.)

Anyway, with this type of notation, you can say "play a I-IV- V-vi" progression in C. This would mean C-F-G-Am. You can easily transpose this to another key once you know your key signatures and all that. So in the key of G this same "I-IV-V-vi" progression would be G (I)-C (IV)-D (V)-Em (vi).

Melodies are described with regular numbers instead of Roman numerals. So the seven different notes of a major scale are numbered 1-7, with the tonic (the "key") being 1. So if you had a melody in C that went: C-D-E-G, that would be 1-2-3-5. You could then transpose this melody to another key the same way as we did with the chord progression. In the key of G, the 1-2-3-5 melody would be: G-A-B-D. In the key of F it would be: F-G-A-C. In Db it would be: Db-Eb-F-Ab. This just requires knowing the key signatures of major scales.

Anyway, this is just the tip of the iceberg. A book or website will get you heading in the right direction.
 
Thanks for the reply but I am actually well versed in musical theory, Your post did not really address my issue. The I IV VI stuff relates to chord progression which I have no problems with. It's melody, I know what notes go in a key but since the only way I can creatively create a melody is too sing it then I'm kinds stuck.

IF I sing a melody that I make up, since I really don't know what notes I am singing, how can I put chords to it. That's the root. I don't know what key I am singing in either - I'm just a regular person.
 
I don't mean to be rude, but how can you be well versed in music theory and not know what notes you're singing? I guess I'm not understanding your problem.

What instrument do you play? If you're singing a melody, simply locate the tonic of the melody on the instrument and there you have the key. You don't have to have perfect pitch to know what key you're in. You just need a strong relative pitch. I'm not understanding what you're asking.

If you're versed in music theory, then you would easily be able to say..."ok ... here's the melody I've made up: dah dah dah dah. I'll go to the instrument and find out that these notes are D-F#-G- A (or whatever.) D sounds like the tonic, so the melody is in the key of D." Then, using your theory knowledge, you would have plenty of chord options.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but something's not adding up. Dictating or transcribing a melody is relatively simple in terms of theory. If you're not able to figure out the melody you're singing, then you may need to train your ear some more.

The reason I assumed you weren't versed in theory is because you said "without musical training" in your first post. To what musical training are you referring?
 
Ah, this is a confidence / practice issue. Tony, just mess around with a guitar or keyboard and get confident with finding and playing the notes you sing. It get easy quickly, persevere a bit. Then you'll know where you are, it will all fall into place.
 
Sounds like you need to sit down with your instrument and do a bit of voice tuning.

Just play around a bit until you can confidently transpose what you're singing onto a guitar/piano/whatever and you'll probably have an idea at least of what key you're singing in.

and if you find conventional chords & melody boring, dont use them. ;)
 
Famous Beagle, it seems some wires are crossed.

Musical Theory is more like a science correct ?? I have read all the books and studied the concepts, I know what chords go with what, what keys belong with what chords, etc.etc. However you play me a note I can't tell what it is - there's a huge difference between what musical theory is and having an "ear".

The others have offered a response you seem to want to lecture me. My point is this. If I knew I was singing a melody of D,F,E,D,F,A then I could easily determine some workable chords, but since I don't know what notes I'm singing I can't.

Understanding music theory (which by the way is available in college as a class for non musicians) is a lot different than being able to sing/play/hear notes.

Though I am not experienced, having only started playing both 18 months ago I play some guitar and piano. As of yet nothing I sing sounds like any notes :) though people I share my music with have commented that I can sing - so perhaps it's just my instruments that are out of tune :D
 
Like I said, I am not trying to be rude. I misunderstood what you meant in your original post, and I think the others had the advantage of hearing your reply, which helped to clarify. Among other things, you wrote this in your original post:

"I am also capable of singing a good melody to some lyrics but without musical training I don't know what notes I'm singing and hence it becomes very difficult to add chords."

To me, this sounded like a typical situation. There are a lot of people who can sing and all that, but they can't read or write a lick of music. There was nothing in your original post that said you knew theory. So I assumed, mistakenly, that you had a decent ear (and that you can sing pretty well) but just didn't really "know" what you were singing. In other words, Stevie Ray Vaughn could sing and play his ass off, but if you asked him to stop and name the note he was singing or playing, he wouldn't have been able to. That's what I thought. Apparently I was wrong. I AM trying to help--not just lecture.

You're right in that theory is somewhat like a science, but ear-training is part of the application of theory. It doesn't do much good if you can identify a major 3rd interval on paper if you can't identify it when you hear it. So ... if this is where you're at (knowing things on paper but not being able to hear them), then yes you need to work on your ear. Ear training can be more difficult than theory on paper, because some people have a much better ear than others starting out. But ... it certainly can be learned (provided you're not tone deaf). I'm living proof of that. I had a horrible ear when I started 18 years ago, but now I have a pretty finely tuned relative pitch. I went to college to study music, but I don't believe you need to do that. You just need to practice training your ear. Transcribe songs, work on matching pitches to your instrument, and record yourself often to check your progress. Recording yourself is THE most important way of making progress.

Again, I apologize if I came off the wrong way. I really, honestly didn't understand your position.

Good luck.
 
Apologies accepted and offered, rereading my reply above it comes across more unpleasant than intended.

This is a all a hobby for me and right now time is quite short in my life for hobbies. I've found that I have become quite adept at recording covers but I just can't come up with originals because of my melody problems.

Starting with chord structures works but tends to lead to boring melodies in my experience.

Spending extended time on training my ear is not a realistic option right now. However I have seen a couple of things I wondered about.

One is the various ear training tools online (many free), do you have any knowledge of them

The second is a piece of software called Carry A Tune, it has you sing along to songs and records how close you were to the notes, then trains you to get closer, including a ear training and pitch tracking - also seems interesting and not that expensive. http://www.carryatune.com/

Thanks

Tony
 
Man, what you're asking is hard to adress.

To a degree the reference to theory applys - since an understanding of what notes are in the various scales would help you determine what chords may or may not work.

While I understand that when you sing a melody line to lyrics with no instrument it can be hard to figue out chords. However, if you can remember the melody line until you can get to an instrument, it should be easy enough to sing the notes and through trial and error, pick the notes on an instrument. Once you have the notes, you can then figure out what chords contain the scale(s) those notes fit.

Certainly understanding the "science" or theory and having an ear are two different things, however, a little of each can get you a long way.

Perhaps sitting down and practising scales would not only give you a better understanding of theory, but would also help you improve your ear.
 
tonyoci said:
Apologies accepted and offered, rereading my reply above it comes across more unpleasant than intended.

This is a all a hobby for me and right now time is quite short in my life for hobbies. I've found that I have become quite adept at recording covers but I just can't come up with originals because of my melody problems.

Starting with chord structures works but tends to lead to boring melodies in my experience.

Spending extended time on training my ear is not a realistic option right now. However I have seen a couple of things I wondered about.

One is the various ear training tools online (many free), do you have any knowledge of them

The second is a piece of software called Carry A Tune, it has you sing along to songs and records how close you were to the notes, then trains you to get closer, including a ear training and pitch tracking - also seems interesting and not that expensive. http://www.carryatune.com/

Thanks

Tony
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Yeah I was going to suggest that there were probably a lot of online ear training kind of things, but I wasn't sure. That carry a tune thing seems pretty cool, but if you didn't want to spend anything right away, then I would say certainly try out some of the free software you can find.

Here's on of the best ear training exercises I've had experience with. It's also pretty fun (in my opinion).

Take a root note, say, C and play that on your instrument (I don't know if it's guitar or piano, or ??) Then play a 5th above that (G). Play those notes first melodically, then together. Then do the same thing, except replace the G with your voice. Play the C, then sing the G. Then play the C and sing the G together. Work on making the note you sing sound as in tune as the note on the instrument. Try it with different vowell sounds: oo, ah, ee, oh, etc.

Then do this with other intervals: 4ths (C-F), major 3rds (C-E), minor 3rds (C-Eb), 6ths (C-A), etc. You can also do 2nds and 7ths, but those will be more difficult to tune at first because they're not triadic.

Of course, for this exercise to work, you have to make sure your instrument is in tune. If you play guitar and are not that great at tuning by ear, then get an electronic tuner and use that. If you're playing piano, hopefully it's in tune. If not, you may need to shell out the $50 or $60 and get it tuned by a piano tuner.

Anyway, I think this exercise is actually pretty fun, and really helpful as well. You just need to spend maybe 15 minutes a day. Even that much will really help. Pick a different root note each day to help work through your vocal range. You'll see results; I promise.
 
As with the above, I'd have to agree that your ear needs to work out. What it sounds like is that you have a melody in your heard, lets say its re fa sol do sol do or something. You need to train your ear to be able to hear what notes you're singing within whatever key you're singing it in. Google "functional ear trainer." It's a program that will help you identify tones within a key. Sooner or later you should be able to figure out the melody and play around with the best chord progression for it.

At least, that's the theory. :D
 
As a Reply I would say you really dont music theory, although it may help you maybe. Basically, if you can come up with a nice sweet melody over what your playing that's all you need. The more you do that the stronger you will become in your songwriting, and those things in your head will come out eventually . It did for me. How long have you been playing?
 
I'm a weird mix, I have been heavily involed in music for a long time, my best friend went to the Guild Hall Music School in London for guitar and I was always the singer in the bands when I was a teenager. I have produced and arranged music for my friend for years (having a better commercial feel than he does) but. I've only been playing with any seriousness for 6 months.

Writing melodies over chords has been OK for me but they tend to end up very similar. I was trying to figure out how to get some chords for my melodies I've been dreaming up in my head.

Tony
 
tonyoci said:
I'm a weird mix, I have been heavily involed in music for a long time, my best friend went to the Guild Hall Music School in London for guitar and I was always the singer in the bands when I was a teenager. I have produced and arranged music for my friend for years (having a better commercial feel than he does) but. I've only been playing with any seriousness for 6 months.

Writing melodies over chords has been OK for me but they tend to end up very similar. I was trying to figure out how to get some chords for my melodies I've been dreaming up in my head.

Tony
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Man ... I just really don't get it. How can you be a singer in bands for years and not be able to tell what notes you're singing? I'm just really at a loss.

I mean ... I know you might not be able to name the notes you're singing as you sing them. But it should be a very simple matter of getting to an instrument and finding them.

Are you not accomplished enough on the guitar to find the notes?

Again, I just don't get it.
 
famous beagle said:
Man ... I just really don't get it. How can you be a singer in bands for years and not be able to tell what notes you're singing? I'm just really at a loss.

I mean ... I know you might not be able to name the notes you're singing as you sing them. But it should be a very simple matter of getting to an instrument and finding them.

Are you not accomplished enough on the guitar to find the notes?

Again, I just don't get it.
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It seems like you're here to push buttons. Please read my posts again. I did not say I have been the singer in band for years not anywhere.

Now even if I was I can GUARANTEE that many singers (especially amateurs) do not know what notes they are singing - you'd be a foolish musical snob if you think they do.

and no I cannot pick out notes I sing on a guitar or piano. I admit I haven't really tried much and perhaps I could but my singing does not produce the same tone as a guitar or piano even though the notes are the same.

It's far too easy for self annointed experts to say "this is easy, that is easy" but, as a reminder, this is the home recording forum, not the professional years of experience musicians forum.

Tony
 
tonyoci said:
I'm a weird mix, I have been heavily involed in music for a long time, my best friend went to the Guild Hall Music School in London for guitar and I was always the singer in the bands when I was a teenager. I have produced and arranged music for my friend for years (having a better commercial feel than he does) but. I've only been playing with any seriousness for 6 months.

Writing melodies over chords has been OK for me but they tend to end up very similar. I was trying to figure out how to get some chords for my melodies I've been dreaming up in my head.

Tony
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While the melody is in your head, walk over to the piano and pick it out. Work out some different comp chords with your left hand. Done.

Pick up a guitar and play chords while you sing the melody. Discern the chords you want. Done.

I don't understand how you can come up with a melody without some rough idea of the chord intervals behind it -even if it's just subconsciously. If not, you are in for a pleasant suprise when you realize that the same melody over different chord intervals results in a different sound altogether. Perhaps for this excercise you can temporarily forget all you know about theory and concentrate on what sounds right to you.

-Casey
 
This is what you said:

my best friend went to the Guild Hall Music School in London for guitar and I was always the singer in the bands when I was a teenager.
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I assumed, foolishly I guess, that you were a teenager for more than one year. (Hence the word "years.")

I'm not trying to push buttons; I'm honestly trying to help. But something is not adding up, and I was trying to find out what it is.

I will agree that some (I wouldn't say most) amateur singers don't know what notes they're singing. But I would the vast, vast majority of professionals do know. I know about 6 or 7 singers, and none of them are professional. All of them can name the notes they are singing. And again, I'm not talking about perfect pitch. I just mean, if they know a song is in the key of G, then they can sing a 3rd (B) without a problem.

Before you make a statement like that, remember that probably over 90% of singers ARE amateurs. They outnumber the pros by far. And if you think the pros got where they are by lucking out or just going on instinct, I'd say you're in for a rude awakening.
 
Well I'm sorry I have to say that I think you are wrong.

I would say that 95%, at least, of singers in regular local bands, the kind that play in bars or never make it out of the garage do not know the notes they are singing. That's a far larger number than the few "good" singers who have a solid idea of what they are doing. Do you really believe that punk/pop band X's singer knew all the notes he was singing when they made their first demo - I really don't think so and nothing you can tell me will tell you otherwise. You seem to be living in a "musical" world where you encounter people who are a lot different from the kids I see playing in the local High School Battle of the Bands (which is the highest level I eve achieved as a teenager - which was a long time ago by the way).

I assume you are a well trained musician and are just a little out of touch with the true amateurs, kids, home musicians and young bands and you are just making assumptions based on your experiences not realizing how the less experienced people actually work. You of course know that the Beatles knew nothing about music for their first 2-3 albums. They learned chords one at a time and put together whatever sounded good, then sang what matched. George Martin added the "musical theory" to their stuff.

It's funny really because basically, as a kid, I gave up music because my guild hall of music guitar playing friend and his buddies convinced me that I knew nothing about music and could not do well without knowing all the fancy stuff. But even today I can knock out a more catchy and fun tune than these technicians can.

Tony
 
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