You guys are kidding, right?

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s_paul

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Someone brought my attention to this thread (1X recording) doubtless so I could see what was going on here...

This will be short and sweet.

1) I believe I clearly stated that mass was the idea, and this governs the principles behind everything. The more inertia somethig has, the harder it is to control.

2) The average (and best!) systems about which we're talking are not equipped with sufficient current and damping characteristics to accurately control focus and tracking at high speeds given the -enormous- relative mass of the voice-coil optic system, vs. the thin film lightweight, heavily vibration-damped and designed with Repeat Read Error Correcting Code heads in HDs which optical systems do not have. (Not to mention the size and number of word blocks available to dedicate to the -robustness- of that CRC code, and servo tracks magnetically imprinted in HD media to assure higher speed RW accuracy and greater bit packing density.)

3) I write C++ too, and am fully aware that software can be burned at higher speeds and still work. Audio, though technically software, =isn't=. There are numerous factors which if you really want explained, you might consider asking me with some respect and humility to share my =views= (and Lord knows they are =only= that,) and I will possibly try and take the time, though my time is at a premium. I believe I took =tremendous= pains to make certain that my first appearance here some time ago, made you all aware that I operate in a realm of humility and willingness to learn even as I teach, for I do teach, (USC, and Northridge) and without this ability, I could not be a very good teacher.

I also don't seem to be permitted any leeway in my responses given my unfortunate position, (unaware that I had landed in a steaming jungle full of hidden traps and trip wires) and the fact that I did not begin the thread, and that only the very last part of an extremely exasperating and wearying session of PhD level posts had been written and ignored by non-artists, as well as spec men, which is fine, but I just don't have the energy I used to for this stuff. I will leave the sob stories at home.

4) I also believe I stated for the record that 'if you wish to be on the safe side' cut at 1X... here I paraphrase, but this was the idea. It was not presented as a holy Truth. Only God possesses those, though to my knowledge some here seem to think I -think- I do (I do not) or they -do-.

5) I was dragged in here without my knowledge, my post taken out of context, (though well-meant I'm sure) and I cannot be responsible for the fact that the exposition I wrote of how the factors involved in the differing of ECC between optical and hard disk systems and factors affecting the reproduction of sound vs. operating object code wasn't quoted. I assure all of you that by the time I 'lost it', I had explained the thing to death. I didn't start that thread, and if you can't extrapolate from the mass metaphor, I can't help that.

6) I care very much about my business, or we wouldn't be here after 20 years. I -don't- care much to have my thoughts and writing -not- examined carefully for content and context, and then having to feel as though I must either have some fun and a little field day with it, or just forget the whole thing. Obviously I should have simply forgotten it. As for deciding on the 'tude of the place, I try not to judge, (Matthew VII:1) but it seemed pretty clear where all this was heading. I've smelled enough crap in my life to know I shouldn't step in it, but I do sometimes just the same as anyone else... (what IS that smell in here anyway?)

7) If you think I am incapable of supporting my assertions you're entitled to your opine. But why not =ask= for an explanation first, (instead of assuming that I did not or worse yet, -could- not explain my reasons, as it should have been pretty obvious that -something- was missing from the original quote posted here) and -then- decide what my abilities are in this area. Yes, I've been here a long time, and you are entitled to be ignorant and unconcerned about me and my work and make those assertions of your hard-won opinions known, as well as the total lack of confidence in my own.

This is America, and I nearly lost my life many times, (including having my tailfeathers blown off over a -very- hostile stretch of jungle, and witnessed things getting outta there that taught me a lot about what can happen when ideologies get out of control, along with your hydraulics,) trying (in my mistaken youth) to defend all of our rights to say what we wish. I would do it again, only this time I would consider the cause and source of the fight a bit more carefully.

And finally: (emphasis mine)

8) -Ask- and it shall be given you; -seek- and ye shall find, -knock- and it shall be opened unto you. For everyone that -asketh- receiveth, and he that -seeketh- findeth; and to him that -knocketh-, it -shall- be opened. --Matthew VII:7,8

Words to live by.

Stephen Paul

http://www.mp3.com/stephenpaul
http://www.spaudio.com
 
Sigh. I thought we were done with this subject and that everybody now agreed, but it seems not.

s_paul said:
3) I write C++ too, and am fully aware that software can be burned at higher speeds and still work. Audio, though technically software, =isn't=. There are numerous factors which if you really want explained, you might consider asking me with some respect and humility to share my =views= (and Lord knows they are =only= that,) and I will possibly try and take the time, though my time is at a premium.

Oh, yes, please explain to me how a CD-record tells the difference between a C++ file and audio data.

Dobro killed the last thread by burning a CD in 2x, and digitally comparing the burned data with the original wav, and showing that they were identical. This proves conclusively that sound quality does not have to degrade if you burn in higher speeds. It MAY degrade, but as I said before, if and when you get errors in the burning process depends on your equipment. You simply can not say, that 2x is gonna sound worse than 1x. In theory 1x may, if you have extremely bad luck, even sound worse than 2x.

And no, this is NOT a personal attack on any one, not on Stephen Paul and not on anyone else, and I hope that I will not have anybody attack me for no reason this time.
This is just facts. Accept them, or prove me wrong.
 
And I quote:

4) I also believe I stated for the record that 'if you wish to be on the safe side' cut at 1X... here I paraphrase, but this was the idea. It was not presented as a holy Truth. Only God possesses those, though to my knowledge some here seem to think I -think- I do (I do not) or they -do-.

SP

Too bad, this seemed like a nice place once. Later guys. Fix your own damned flats. And make your own 'records' or whatever the hell makes you happy... 73s buddy

Sorry I looked. What a bunch of crap.
 
wow - what a load of ... went to the site even worse -- the awakening!!.. clicking next page gave more of the same... out o here!!! :eek:
 
Er, guys.... I hate to butt into this thread, but how the f**k did people here manage to alienate an extremely qualified studio pro from participating in this forum????

Not that he needs me to say it, but Stephen Paul's credentials are WAY up there -- his technology appears on a great many records spanning the past 15 years.... I believe he's earned a bit more respect than he seems to have been given.........

If George Massenburg showed up would he be dismissed as easily??? WE SHOULD BE LEARNING SOMETHING FROM THESE PEOPLE -- like it or not they know something we don't -- they've been PROs at this for a VERY long time!!!!

My 2 cents....

Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
 
I don't think *we* did anything. He did it all by himself.
Please note, that before today, nobody here have said one single negative word about Stephen Paul. Nobody.

Lets repeat what happened:
1. Somebody posted a link to a site with a load of complete crap about digital copying, written by somebody (not Stephen Paul) that obviously has no idea what they were talking about at all, claiming that 1x was better.
2. I said it was bullshit.
3. A heated debate ensued, in wich RE posted a long rant by Stephen Paul, which seemed to have little to do with the subject, and mostly contained complaints from Stephen Paul that he wasn't given enough respect and people didn't listen to him.
4. I wondered who Stephen Paul was and why he was angry, and RE got upset.
5. I tried to make clear that all I was trying to say is that you shouldn't trust people who couldn't explain WHY something sounds better and has double blind tests to prove that it does.
6. Stephen Paul enteres the scene, and give long rant about how people here didn't show him the proper respect humility, and btw, if you don't know who Stephen Paul are, you are an insignificant piece of pocket lint.
7. I point out that I haven't said anything negative about Stephen Paul at all, which he seemed to think.
8. Dobro shows by actually testing, that the "1x is always better" statement is bullshit, thereby killing the thread completely.
9. Stephen Paul returns, this time saying that audio data is not the same as other digital data, and that he can explain why if we show proper respect and humility.
10. Obviously, I did not grovel at Stephen Pauls feet and infinite wisdom enough, he decided NOT to explain this, and explained that he was sorry he looked.

I'm sorry he looked too.


[Edited by regebro on 10-18-2000 at 07:51]
 
I *completely* agree, Bruce. Mr Paul seems to have taken strong issue with Regebro's response to his post, and if you examine Regebro's post carefully, you will see exactly what the problem is. Regebro's feeble attempts at politeness ("Please" indeed!) and his patently transparent disclaimer ("And no, this is NOT a personal attack on any one, not on Stephen Paul and not on anyone else, and I hope that I will not have anybody attack me for no reason this time.") served merely to irritate the sensibilities of our distinguished visitor to the point where he had little option but absent himself. IMHO (and I assure you humility is a virtue I esteem highly in *any* human being, especially myself), I believe Regrebro should receive the strictest censure for his thoughtlessness and a stern caution as well.

If we cannot manage to zero our egos sufficiently to make a visitor of Mr Paul's obvious stature completely welcome, I mean, what's the *point*?
 
Hey now -- I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular... let's keep that straight.... I don't want anyone censored and everyone has a right to an opinion ('cept maybe FatherTime???) :)

I didn't follow all the thread so I can't comment on where it started either - but I do stand by my point that SP is well-respected in the audio field and his opinion should count... and maybe there is something in the theory that we don't know or can't appreciate at a certain level!

Anyways... I hate these kinds of threads and generally avoid them (much like the CD burn speed post) - we're not here to argue *that* much! ;)

Bruce
 
Up until what I am writing now I haven't said ANYTHING bad about Stephen Paul at all. Nothing. And up until what John Sayers wrote above NOBODY had said anything negative about Stephen Paul at all. Nobody had shown any disrespect either. All *I* did was ask who he was and said that you shouldn't trust anybodys ears without double blind testing.

Stephen Paul, on the other hand, has done NOTHING but complain about what a bunch of morons everybody here is, and that we don't show enough respect and humility.
Oh, and he has said two things of substance:
1. Use 1x to be on the safe side (true).
2. Digital audio data is not the same as other digital data (false).

So, Stephen Paul has entered here, and he STARTED with telling everybody that we didn't like him, and that we all were morons. Is my lack of knowledge about Stephen Paul somthing to get upset about? No. Is the fact that Stephen Paul is human something to be upset about? No. Stephen Paul has absolutely ZERO reason to be upset and act like he did when he entered here. Did people disrespect him for this? No, nobody said a bad word. I several times told him that I in no way was critizing him. Did it help? No. He was still pissed off, for reasons I can only guess.

Earlier RE forwarded some posts by Stephen Paul (from a newsgroup I think). One of them contained nothing else that Stephen Paul doing exactly the same thing as he has been doing here, namely ranting over that people doesn't show him respect and doesn't listen to him. It seems to me that *we* aren't the problem here...
 
Sadly, Bruce, I feel I must disagree with you on this point. It has become increasingly clear to me in this thread that we must take a firm stand in these matters. If Regebro, a mere 'Expert Member', cannot manage to navigate his way through these threads without treading on the toes of prestigious persons such as our recently departed luminary, then it is the duty of such as myself, a Forum Moderator of some six months' standing, to point out both the error and the way forward.

Mr Paul, Regebro, a man of considerable reputation, echoed in both the length and weight of his posts, surely deserves more deference from the likes of us. Do you not feel you can, for you should, step back and allow the genuine article a more attentive, receptive and appreciative audience?

I could say more. But I won't.
 
Stephen who? Who gives a flyin' shit. Where the hell is Hixmix when you need him?
 
Mr. Paul, I and many others here DO hold you in high regard. Regebro,IMHO said nothing that indicated any disrespect against you just merely stating that the author of that particular article in question stated that 1x burning produces far better quality than other speeds. Especially when said author used equipment not conducive to proving otherwise. Furthermore,there are some who may have never heard of you and thought you were just "RANTING ON"
about the subject. I read your posts and though they were somewhat more advanced technically than I can understand, I did learn several new things and very much would like to thank you for that. Otherwise, you ARE held in high respect here as this thread indicates;
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=13164

Stephen, don't let a misunderstanding prevent you from visiting here as many others and myself included can learn a GREAT deal on recording from a wizard such as your self!
Isn't it the job of the teacher to teach?
Share that great wealth of knowledge with those who yearn to learn!

Peace dude!
MisterQ.
 
Oh my....oh my oh my oh my....

Well, regebro is certainly showing his stuff here!

regebro. I was going to write a very long essay about this here, but decided that would require about 2 hours of my time to cover ALL the bases. Sorry, I just don't have the time!

You should read up about what IS the difference between CD audio 'digital data' and other forms of digital data before you continue to stick your foot in your mouth (yes, you are really sticking your foot in your mouth here....:))

To compare what is coming off of a CD disk that cost about $1 to make and what is coming off of a hard drive is ludicrous!!! These are so totally different things, and the way that the data is handled is VERY VERY different.

regebro, you need to go do some reading on this. You are way off base.

SP has made extremely valid points!!!

I will say this though. With todays technology, burning at 1X or 2X, or even 4X will make little difference in what you hear. The burners nowadays are much better then they were even two years ago. What differences there are will generally not be picked up by your ear, even after many generations.

Um, also, copying a file over and over on a hard disk doesn't really mean a lot. I know that SP said it will degrade the performance etc....and still, he has a point. But harddrive data enjoys a very different error correction (if you want to call it that) then CD audio does. In fact, data on a hard drive that is copied gets both hardware and software "attention" to assure of bit accuracy. While the chances of "errors" still exists, you still will not hear them.

regebro, did you know that digital audio can actually have total and complete dropouts in it and if they are short enough you would never "hear" it? Can you imagine if you had enough of these dropouts what the resulting audio would start to sound like?

Anyway, I am not going to get into a pissing match here.

I will just say that modern CDR burners are much better then they used to be, and the resulting audio CDR's coming off of them are much higher in quality. The quality difference between 1 and 2X speeds in just not going to be detected by your ear if you are using a good burner.

But I remember hearing "exact" copies of CD's done on internal CD burners from a few years ago. You could "hear" the difference, even though it was supposed to be an exact copy!

Anyway. While I still think SP is more of less being an elitest jerk, and still hasn't quite shown this supposed "humble side that is up on learning, etc...., he is explaining stuff that is way over most of our heads at this point, and his points have merit. It is not my problem if you don't understand the implications of what he is saying in real life situations, it just means you all need to start doing some learning, and he even had the "humility" to admit that you can be "safe" by burning at 1X speed. I will take that.

Anyway......don't take it all too personally regebro. I don't hate you, or particularly want to single you out, but you do have some precendence on this board for making statements that are just outright wrong! I suspect your hearing sometimes because you don't seem to hear differences in audio that other clearly hear.

I will not challenge SP on the technical issues involved here, and none of you should either. You are waaaaaaaaaaaay out of your league! But, I still think he is an elitest jerk who would rather talk about how much he knows then to take the time to share it at a level that people can get a grasp on it.

At least he admitted that sharing all the pertinent information on this issue would be very time consuming and extensive. But a link to a place to start learn would be kind of nice SP!!! Otherwise, maybe it is just as well that you ignore ignorant posts! Eh? :)

Ed
 
Excellent point sonusman in re to a Stephen Paul link detailing the technical aspects of burning speeds,block error rates etc. It can even be compared to the digido link.

Any chance Stephen?
 
I would at this point just mention to sonusman that I in fact are read up on these subjects. I am quite aware that there are format differences between Audio data and CD-ROM data on CD. I am quite aware of the the fact that there can be dropouts and so on. And I am also fully confident in the fact that digital data is digital data, no matter if it is audio or c++ files or a picture of Madonnas boobies. A perfect digital copy of audio will NOT, I repeat NOT, have any audio degradation, even if it was burnt at 2x 4x of 8x. An IMPERFECT copy WILL have audio degradation, but there is nothing that says that 2x ALWAYS produces more errors than 1x. This is what I have been saying the whole time.

The web page that was referred to in the post that started all this claimed the opposite. It claimed that every time you copy digital audio, no matter where or what, you will get audio degradation. That is simply WRONG. This is what the actual factual discussion once was about.

Then messed up with this seems to be a lot of feeling and egoes, and maybe pissing matches, but trust me, they ain't mine.
 
Don't forget....

I beleieve that what SP is trying to say is that you can burn a CD that is technically "bit perfect" but that the burn could possibly not have inbedded deep enough pits to produce accurate reflections off of the burned disk for the lazer sensors on a CD player to properly read. From what I have read about burning, it is far from a perfect process.

When you burn a CDR and submit it to a duplication house for duplication, they are going to check that disk for errors. They are going to find them! As far as I know, there is just no way for a optical system to not have them, thus error correction is used on players to make up for it. So anyway.....

You submit the CD. The duplication house is going to do another process of reading the CDR THROUGH AN OPTICAL SYSTEM WHICH WILL PRODUCE YET IT'S OWN ERRORS TO WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY THERE, so that the digital data can be used to produce a glass master WHICH IS YET ANOTHER PHYSICAL PROCESS WHICH WILL MORE THEN LIKELY PRODUCED IT'S OWN ERRORS on the glass master. Then, we are going to have some material "stamped" onto that glass master to produce the reflective material they use in CD's, WHICH IS GOING TO PROBABLY PRODUCE IT'S OWN ERRORS too.

You guys getting the idea here? ERRORS ARE PART OF THE LIFE OF DIGITAL DATA!!!

Now, if you think that your nifty internal CDR burner that you paid $200 for is in the same league with the readers and writers that duplication houses use, you are CRAZY!!! If you think that all CD burners and readers are created equal, you are just plain ass wrong!!!

So, my point is this. Like all things in audio, it is a good idea to start off with the best thing possible, because in audio, it is going to pass through many more stages before someone hears it. If you burn a CDR that has a lot of errors in it, you may not hear them on the CDR when you play it back on a quality READER. But when that same CDR is being read, all those errors will carry over. The reader itself will create a few more of it's own. The etcher for the glass master will create it's own too. The materials used for reflectivity in CD's will have imperfections that will produce it's own. How dirty that CD is, and how many scratches it has will produce it's own. How good you end users reader is will produce it's own.

Get the idea, ever step is producing errors that the finale reader has to use error correction to make up for.

So, basically, every error is carried over into the next step. So, you start out with a lot of errors, you wind up with even more in the end. Throw in the fact that the duplication house may not tell you that your disk has too many errors for them to produce high quality results, and you have screwed the pooch at the very beginning.

Since the quality of the initial burn is the weakest link with most of us, it has the biggest bearing on the quality of the finale product. A low quality burner using low quality media IS GOING TO PRODUCE MORE ERRORS IN THE DATA that will carry over till the very end.

It only makes sense that you try to produce a burn that has the fewest errors possible! With many older burners, this was only possible at 1X speed. As the burners got better, 2X speed produced few enough errors to be deemed "acceptable". Now we are starting to get into a time where the burn quality on 4X burners produce results that are deemed "acceptable". But physics suggest that the slower burns will produce better results no matter what. Damn to hell the "acceptable" error rates, we want as few as possible!

So, there you have it. Burn slower! :)

But, I still say that I doubt that ANYONE can hear the difference between a 1x and 2x speed, even if the CDR has gone through the whole duplication house process.

Did you all also know that it is possible to burn a CDR that has a very low error rate, but most readers will have trouble reading? This is a result of the quality of the burn itself! Slower burns technically produce deeper and better defined pits, which makes reading the disk accurately much easier.

Bottom line though, at this point, most of us can get away with a 2X speed burn with the current technology and have it sound great! The source material may be a whole other matter in relative quality, but, that is a different baby altogether....:)

Ed
 
Another thing....

If any of you are placing trust that the software included with your CD burner is going to tell the whole story about errors in a burn, well, oops!!! No way hose!!!

I doubt there is anyone of this board with hardware good enough to make such a comparison between the original digital data and the burned digital date, because basically, you would have to throw the digital data from the CDR back onto the harddrive to compare effectively, and that IS another physical process that will produce yet even more errors. Then you are banking on the fact that your software is actually performing comparisons that are accurate and meaning full. Every bit of data in evey sample would have to be compared. The software could allow for absolutely no differences to bias the results.

I mention software coming with burners as not being reliable bacause why the hell would a hardware manufacture potentially show how bad their hardware possibly is? I wouldn't trust it....:)

Now, I just may be talking out my ass here, and I am very interested in seeing results that was done with high caliber test equipment that show the results, from an independent source held in high regard, with no interest in making money by biasing the results in any way, to show how different 'common' internal CDR burners compare.

I would think this would be a very revealing test based upon all the problems I read in these boards about people having problems just burning CDR's, and all the problems with these CDR's not playing in different playback systems!!! :)

But, I still say that it is silly at times the technical info some old timers put out on boards. Hell, Roger Nichols claims that mastering done in software with 16 bit 44.1 sampling rate files will sound just as good as mastering done 24/48 files, much to the different opinions of many of the top mastering engineers in the world, and to MY ears! So, what I am saying is that while SP's info can have merit, some of it can also be based upon old info that has changed since he learned it. So, it just goes to show you can't beleive EVERYTHING you read. But to his credit (and trust me, I still think he is an elistest jerk who is way too high on himself. The whole tone of his posts suggest this!) SP is dealing in a realm and with information that I am sure many of us here just do not deal with! I will give him at least defference for that, even though I think he is a jerk, and some of his info may be outdated, or just plain not even pertinent to the scope of these threads and the real life situations of audio that we all deal with! :)

Ed
 
Oh yeah....

regebro, you claim audio degregation will NOT happen no matter what the method is.

Okay....:)

Try burning a CDR. Now make a copy of that CDR. Make a copy of the copy. Make another copy of the copied copy, etc.....

Make enough copies and you may not hear the difference (you can't hear the difference between the different mp3 encoders at 128kbs!), but many will! Smoke and mirrors? An ingrained bias? Nope!

Ed
 
Exactly. And who said it? And how was it said - pompously, or understandably?
 
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