fraserhutch
Flypaper for freaks
And hooray for being an ignorant asshole who attacks the person, not the ideas.
Ad hominem abusive attacks are for the feeble minded. Appropriate here it appears.
yep pro-tools still sucks
- Thread starter sweetnubs
- Start date
And hooray for being an ignorant asshole who attacks the person, not the ideas.
Ad hominem abusive attacks are for the feeble minded. Appropriate here it appears.
TerraMortim
New member
THE INTERNET IS FUCKING SERIOUS! I tell you! This is real life, so start taking it seriously! BIAAAAAAATCHHHH!
ridgeback
New member
I think I need to say something here.
Garbage In
Garbage Out
ANALogue or Digital.
MY deciding factor is that I live in the sticks. I can't afford nor even find someone to align my deck or work on a console with major bucks involved. If my PM I/O craps or PT freezes up (rarely) I restart or re-install. Problem fixed. I'll also remind people that the name of this site is HomeRecording BBS.
Garbage In
Garbage Out
ANALogue or Digital.
MY deciding factor is that I live in the sticks. I can't afford nor even find someone to align my deck or work on a console with major bucks involved. If my PM I/O craps or PT freezes up (rarely) I restart or re-install. Problem fixed. I'll also remind people that the name of this site is HomeRecording BBS.
TerraMortim
New member
You see, with digital computer based recording that arguement is not as relevant with purely analogue gear. There are some pieces of software that sound so damn good that they compare to some very high end analogue gear. There is always a little bit of a signature analogue sound right out of the box, but with some know how you can get results comparable to most super high end shit. You know, I really do drool over some of the highest end gear when I have some money to burn, but then I start thinking... okay I could have ONE nice compressor, or I could re-outfit my computer to double my track count... or I could spend it in getting music out to people. To rely stricktly on the calibre of your gear to get your results is the lazy way out for sure. It's not all that practical for the vast majority of audio people to be recording with an SSL or NEVE with top dollar compressors and pre-amps. I have used all kinds of gear from cheap to top of the line, and sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't do shit. Anyone who tries to impress people with what shit they bought just lacks anything to truely brag about... kind of how the kind of moronic simpletons that are quick to wave their flags of nationalism, simply because they have done nothing in their own life to be proud of. Brag about what great mixes you do, not what dumb ass gear you have. Big deal. Any persron with some extra money could buy any gear they wanted... kind of like the corporate big-wig who thinks he's gonna be a world class producer, and buys a pro tools HD rig, only to have it sit there for a few years, and he sells it for much under it's value... or over-priviledged suburban children who have their parents buy them $10,000 in musical gear only to let it collect dust and their parents sell it in the newspaper when their kids go to college so they can make space for that swarsky crystal encrusted indoor heated pool that they've been itching to go into debt for.
I must add though, that I find this arguement has more stock when it comes to choosing studio monitors, mics, and pre-amps/A-D converters, as this can be the most important if you need to sculpt a bigger sound than you actually should be able to. Once you have a good signal the possibilities are vast. Besides...if you REALLY need that LA2A sound on a project, put it in the budget and rent the fucking thing. But oh yeah...since he uses ONLY analogue...it limits his choices, he has to have the piece of gear there the entire session, unless he wants to run over the same tracks over and over, which will lessen the quality and send the noisefloor through the roof of his oh so precious tape, and could see some bleed between the tracks...or he could just take out a sizable bank loan to buy up all the tape he can and hold it in a warehouse for it to deteriorate in 25 years.
Really though...sounding great isn't the gear you use AT ALL... It can help you get to your result with less work, but that's about it, to some extent... sounding great is a combination of your ears, experience, ingenuity, and just plain luck. Getting something that could make a world class recording is VERY inexpensive nowadays, and if the recording suffers, it's probably because of the engineer's talent level, not the gear. Remember, some of the most influential recordings EVER were often recorded with less than perfect gear in less than perfect situations. It was just always the brilliant techniques and approaches that made it so great... THe best engineers in the world could sit down on the most primitive gear and get a great mix. If not, their abilities don't impress me. Anyone can make world class gear sound great... how about the other way around.
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fraserhutch
Flypaper for freaks
GOODLAND
New member
What a downer.
TerraMortim
New member
Oh, I've been schooled. Really.
You have...now take a nap.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
This is not true. If anything, world class gear exposes weaknesses in the room, instruments, equipment and mix more than inexpensive gear does.
Again, it's up to the artist and recording/mix engineers to set the standard. If good enough is good enough, then be happy with that. If that's not good enough, then a special standard has to be sought in every area of recording. But there are very few who have the burning desire for quality and the ability for self-criticism that it takes to walk that path.
This is not a discussion of analog versus digital at all.
And the recording gear does make a difference, there's no question of that. Whether you decide it's worth it or not to buy or rent the better equipment is up to you, but to say it doesn't matter is to stick your head in the sand. It does matter.
TerraMortim
New member
no where near as much as most people claim. Myself, and many people I know have gotten away with using cheap software/gear and have fooled people into thinking it was done in an expensive studio. When I spend, I spend on a good mic, good pre-amp and good monitors... Those tools can make it so you can very effectively sculpt the sound into something that sounds more expensive than it is.
The thing is, it IS easier to make expensive gear sound great without too much knowhow. Why do you think there are people out there like Sweet "25 years" Nubs, who can't figure out how to make that "new fangled" digital stuff sound as good as their high end analogue gear.. It's surely not impossible for the multitudes of people who use that as their medium, churning out top quality results. You mentioned the room, but I don't consider that along with gear at all..that's a different animal. A decent room is always crucial unless you want a frustrating experience.. I'd be quicker to spend on making my room sound amazing than some expensive outboard gear...or a studer 24 track. It's not that hard to make top of the line compressors to sound awesome... but to take a cheaper, or software compressor and make that sing..that's difficult. The people I have the most respect for in audio are the ones that are able to turn out unbelievable results within their limitations... It's so dull when someone is like yeah this is my $10,000 compressor so I ummm turned the "sounds good" knob with it and it sounded great. Then I went to my million dollar console and pushed the fader up, and it uhhh sounded great.
What my point is, is that your gear doesn't make you. You can have the largest expensive gear collection on the planet and you'll not be any better than if you had a behringer mixer running to one of those old 4 track cassette recorder things. Anyone who tries to impress everyone with what gear they recorded something on, or that they have "their own studio" (oooo aaaaah... woooow... this is 1990... having your own studio is SO rare and impressive) is just a blithering idiot who obviously has nothing to show for their actual work... other than.. look at my lovely Studer. What people need to realize... your gear is as good as how you know how to use it. Some ledgends used primitive gear, and just figured out how to make something beautiful (or ugly..if that was the brand of beauty they required) with it. Like the first person who used a shitty second hand (no doubt from a pawn shop or garage sale or something) tape delay with the feedback all the way up to create distorted evolving rhythms and patterns. Now that is much more fun than someone who has a rack of $10,000 compressors and no sense of experimentation.
All expensive gear will do is make it easier to get the result you want. It's very possible to either, build your own equivilant gear (FOR A FRACTION OF THE COST), rent it if you need it for a project, or just figure out how to make what you have sound great (did someone say engineering chops? who would have thunk it?). See? The lazy way out. oooh yeah..and Sweetnubs, while your realigning, demagging, and cleaning your tape machine I'll be finishing some music with my Vintage Warmer that never breaks down, never needs maintinance, and turns out consistant results (very nice ones at that) until the end of time. I'll probably have finished an entire days work by the time you've reset all of your outboard gear, re-set up your console, etc... Besides, don't you know that with some of that type of gear different units can vary in quality, some being of the rather shit level of quality up to WOAH COOL! No, cause you're the kind of person who "hears" the brand/model number on the front of the unit. You see, the hillarity of this arguement is I actually have analogue experience, and sometimes use it when a project calls for it, yet you spout off and you don't know SHIT about anything OTHER than that analogue situation. Hillarious as always.
The thing is, it IS easier to make expensive gear sound great without too much knowhow. Why do you think there are people out there like Sweet "25 years" Nubs, who can't figure out how to make that "new fangled" digital stuff sound as good as their high end analogue gear.. It's surely not impossible for the multitudes of people who use that as their medium, churning out top quality results. You mentioned the room, but I don't consider that along with gear at all..that's a different animal. A decent room is always crucial unless you want a frustrating experience.. I'd be quicker to spend on making my room sound amazing than some expensive outboard gear...or a studer 24 track. It's not that hard to make top of the line compressors to sound awesome... but to take a cheaper, or software compressor and make that sing..that's difficult. The people I have the most respect for in audio are the ones that are able to turn out unbelievable results within their limitations... It's so dull when someone is like yeah this is my $10,000 compressor so I ummm turned the "sounds good" knob with it and it sounded great. Then I went to my million dollar console and pushed the fader up, and it uhhh sounded great.
What my point is, is that your gear doesn't make you. You can have the largest expensive gear collection on the planet and you'll not be any better than if you had a behringer mixer running to one of those old 4 track cassette recorder things. Anyone who tries to impress everyone with what gear they recorded something on, or that they have "their own studio" (oooo aaaaah... woooow... this is 1990... having your own studio is SO rare and impressive) is just a blithering idiot who obviously has nothing to show for their actual work... other than.. look at my lovely Studer. What people need to realize... your gear is as good as how you know how to use it. Some ledgends used primitive gear, and just figured out how to make something beautiful (or ugly..if that was the brand of beauty they required) with it. Like the first person who used a shitty second hand (no doubt from a pawn shop or garage sale or something) tape delay with the feedback all the way up to create distorted evolving rhythms and patterns. Now that is much more fun than someone who has a rack of $10,000 compressors and no sense of experimentation.
All expensive gear will do is make it easier to get the result you want. It's very possible to either, build your own equivilant gear (FOR A FRACTION OF THE COST), rent it if you need it for a project, or just figure out how to make what you have sound great (did someone say engineering chops? who would have thunk it?). See? The lazy way out. oooh yeah..and Sweetnubs, while your realigning, demagging, and cleaning your tape machine I'll be finishing some music with my Vintage Warmer that never breaks down, never needs maintinance, and turns out consistant results (very nice ones at that) until the end of time. I'll probably have finished an entire days work by the time you've reset all of your outboard gear, re-set up your console, etc... Besides, don't you know that with some of that type of gear different units can vary in quality, some being of the rather shit level of quality up to WOAH COOL! No, cause you're the kind of person who "hears" the brand/model number on the front of the unit. You see, the hillarity of this arguement is I actually have analogue experience, and sometimes use it when a project calls for it, yet you spout off and you don't know SHIT about anything OTHER than that analogue situation. Hillarious as always.
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D
danny.guitar
Guest
I think inexpensive gear is perfectly capable of great sounding recordings. I've heard proof of that in the MP3 clinic alone.
I've always been told the sonic quality on a lot of my recordings is really good. I have to agree that on a lot of my acoustic stuff (while the songs/playing aren't always great) the sound quality is. And I'm using the cheapest-of-the-cheapest gear available.
If you have really crappy instruments then it doesn't matter what kind of gear you have. Spend the money on that. Then spend enough money to buy gear that is capable of reproducing those sounds accurately. I think most stuff nowadays is capable of that. I don't think you need to spend a fortune.
That's not to say that really expensive gear isn't worth the money or has little benefit. If you have the money (and need ways to get more clients like most studios) then spend it on the gear.
Also, I think most people on this site just like buying gear for the sake of buying gear.
I've always been told the sonic quality on a lot of my recordings is really good. I have to agree that on a lot of my acoustic stuff (while the songs/playing aren't always great) the sound quality is. And I'm using the cheapest-of-the-cheapest gear available.
If you have really crappy instruments then it doesn't matter what kind of gear you have. Spend the money on that. Then spend enough money to buy gear that is capable of reproducing those sounds accurately. I think most stuff nowadays is capable of that. I don't think you need to spend a fortune.
That's not to say that really expensive gear isn't worth the money or has little benefit. If you have the money (and need ways to get more clients like most studios) then spend it on the gear.
Also, I think most people on this site just like buying gear for the sake of buying gear.
sweetnubs
New member
Hello I back from actually making a record. Seems like you've been busy posting rather than actually making records. So when you are actually making records and align your ampex atr- 102 how do you calibrate it and what are your operating levels? I usually go at 520 nwb/m at +6 at 30 ips. Do you think that's my elevated or operating level? What tones do you usually put to tape and tape formulation would you guess I use in relation to my calibration?
sweetnubs
New member
Hello I back from actually making a record. Seems like you've been busy posting rather than actually making records. So when you are actually making records and align your ampex atr- 102 how do you calibrate it and what are your operating levels? I usually go at 520 nwb/m at +6 at 30 ips. Do you think that's my elevated or operating level? What tones do you usually put to tape and what tape formulation would you guess I use in relation to my calibration?
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Perfect comment, and quite true.
I also agree with TerraMortim's comment about spending money on a good mic, preamp, and monitors first. I'd also add "high quality AD conversion" to that short list.
For myself, I use plugins and am happy with the few that I've chosen. But I don't kid myself, I can hear the difference between a plugin compressor and my Avalon 2044. Also, no plugin eq achieves what my Manley Massive Passive does for the sound.
sweetnubs
New member
That's my point exactly digital is fine, I use it frequently and get good results but I'm not kidding myself. Terratard seems to think I have no experience with digital although I without fondness remember the days of Sony DASH machines, MADI and Atari Amiga computers.
10 For x=1 to 1000
20 PRINT "Terramortim is a dumbass"
30 NEXT X
TerraMortim
New member
ah go fuck yourself sweet "25 years" nubs. I hardly think I need to be quizzed by you on basic tape machine operations. What, am I in school here? Is this a pop quiz? I forgot my no. 2 pencil at home. Oh look how he tries to mystify me by using abreviations of commonly known measurements and tape speeds. I feel my mind melting right now. I know I should have paid attention to his fountain of knowledge.. WHY WHY am I so stupid?? You said yourself you don't use digital, and that it is only possible to make a "record" with high end analogue gear... only touching the pro-tools because the tape machine was down. By the way, working with those old systems that you mention don't even resemble in the slightest the workflow, sound quality, or really anything other than that fact it's on a computer the way things are done in modern digital setups. Hell, pro tools is even starting to become the old school in digital now...even with the new pro tools, it's far behind everything else and 10 times the price. If you're so well versed in the world of digital why... 1. do you fall along with the typical analogue guy mindset of "all digital=pro tools".. like the hillarious thing you hear from people who don't have a clue.. "we can pro tools that and fix it in the mix, right?" 2. Do you not understand the differences of working with digital audio in a mix vs analogue tape/console/outboard gear style mixing, and just asume to get the same result on both mediums right from the start. 3. do you have such a moronic, egocentric viewpoint of the way audio is recorded and mixed that you actually think that unless it's recorded on a bloody tape, it's not "truely" great.
You get good results? Wow, you surely must be a victim of multiple personality disorder. This is the same person who basically said that you can't make real records with digital plugins such as "PSP Vintage Warmer", Oh yeah..btw...ever hear of a day off? Oh no, I forgot, your too busy maintaining all your high end analogue gear to have a day off. Ah well, I'll drink a beer for you tonight. You see, when you work efficiently, you tend to discover this wonderful thing called free time, which you can spend on things such as other hobbies, or purely relaxing. It appears from your user photo that you enjoy cross-dressing... imagine how much time you could spent at the drag bar, taking home post-op trannies with this newfound leisure time.
Get off your self appointed high horse oh mighty one. Your gear will not make you good at anything, and will only impress other faggots at the AES cruise. I know, you should all dress in drag and practice inserting your "patch cables" into each other's "patch point"... I wonder..would it more likely be the result of patching an "output" into another "output". Take your oh so impressive studio and shove it right up your ass, as that's no doubt where you form most of your thoughts and ideas anyway (hey, if it's closer to the source...it might make you actually use that expensive gear of yours).
Now that I've had my fun. . .
boingoman..yeah I agree..what my point is, all the gear does REALLY is make it easier and quicker...how much money is that worth. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not. I always weigh the cost vs. benefit. The ammount of time that it saves me is often not that much when you count the enormous price tag. When you look at something like an SSL console or something.. how much time or energy will it really save vs. the cost. And really, I'm finding as time progresses that the ammount of effort to get a great result (due to new and better software and plugins) is lessened. There are some people who have this rediculous idea that they have to get whatever is considered the best most expensive shit out there to get great sounding mixes... not true.. I find that the difference between really bottom of the barrel and mid priced gear is huge, but the difference between the middle of the road gear and the ultra high end gear is very small.. The way the high end gear sounds can usually be replicated in fairly convincing ways with enough know how. And, even if it can't... the chances are that you REALLY actually need that Avalon, vs. just love the way it sounds are small. Anyone with real engineering chops can make a multi million dollar studio sound great, and work equally as well in a home studio environment.
SonicAlbert is absolutely correct. I did say a-d tho My way of thinking is that as long as you have it really nice going in, and you can hear properly and accurately what's going on.. you can have a relatively easy time sculpting it into something just as good as an analogue mix...with all of the added, impossible to achieve, digital exclusive, techniques. Hell, if you want the analogue sound for a track you could even at that point send it out to a tape track, or through a console channel.
You get good results? Wow, you surely must be a victim of multiple personality disorder. This is the same person who basically said that you can't make real records with digital plugins such as "PSP Vintage Warmer", Oh yeah..btw...ever hear of a day off? Oh no, I forgot, your too busy maintaining all your high end analogue gear to have a day off. Ah well, I'll drink a beer for you tonight. You see, when you work efficiently, you tend to discover this wonderful thing called free time, which you can spend on things such as other hobbies, or purely relaxing. It appears from your user photo that you enjoy cross-dressing... imagine how much time you could spent at the drag bar, taking home post-op trannies with this newfound leisure time.
Get off your self appointed high horse oh mighty one. Your gear will not make you good at anything, and will only impress other faggots at the AES cruise. I know, you should all dress in drag and practice inserting your "patch cables" into each other's "patch point"... I wonder..would it more likely be the result of patching an "output" into another "output". Take your oh so impressive studio and shove it right up your ass, as that's no doubt where you form most of your thoughts and ideas anyway (hey, if it's closer to the source...it might make you actually use that expensive gear of yours).
Now that I've had my fun. . .
boingoman..yeah I agree..what my point is, all the gear does REALLY is make it easier and quicker...how much money is that worth. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not. I always weigh the cost vs. benefit. The ammount of time that it saves me is often not that much when you count the enormous price tag. When you look at something like an SSL console or something.. how much time or energy will it really save vs. the cost. And really, I'm finding as time progresses that the ammount of effort to get a great result (due to new and better software and plugins) is lessened. There are some people who have this rediculous idea that they have to get whatever is considered the best most expensive shit out there to get great sounding mixes... not true.. I find that the difference between really bottom of the barrel and mid priced gear is huge, but the difference between the middle of the road gear and the ultra high end gear is very small.. The way the high end gear sounds can usually be replicated in fairly convincing ways with enough know how. And, even if it can't... the chances are that you REALLY actually need that Avalon, vs. just love the way it sounds are small. Anyone with real engineering chops can make a multi million dollar studio sound great, and work equally as well in a home studio environment.
SonicAlbert is absolutely correct. I did say a-d tho
My way of thinking is that as long as you have it really nice going in, and you can hear properly and accurately what's going on.. you can have a relatively easy time sculpting it into something just as good as an analogue mix...with all of the added, impossible to achieve, digital exclusive, techniques. Hell, if you want the analogue sound for a track you could even at that point send it out to a tape track, or through a console channel.
GOODLAND
New member
Wow, You might want to re-think that, along with the other things you've said to sweetnubs.
You write so much but so little is said.
TerraMortim
New member
naw... Have you used other software? PT is so archaic and hasn't changed much in YEARS. Pretty much every single piece of audio software has everything PT has, and more, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.. Pro Tools LE doesn't count as it's so severely crippled. I'll go with Logic for $500 thank you very much =D
It's more a matter that you don't want to hear what I have to say...so you retain little.
It's more a matter that you don't want to hear what I have to say...so you retain little.
GOODLAND
New member
No, that's not it at all. I'd appreciate if you'd stop assuming what people's experiences and thoughts are. I own a Digi003 at my Home studio with Pro Tools LE 7.3.1 and I've popped out phenomenal mixes. I've never once wished I was on another DAW, and I gave Logic and Cubase a fair chance. I must say though that the Waves Mercury Bundle has helped a great deal with my mixes, as well as some great Summit Audio outboard gear. And having a fully loaded Mac Pro allows me to track with 64 sample latency with almost all my RTAS plug-ins applied on my LE system. I don't feel crippled in the least using my Digi003 and PTLE, and I do a lot of my work on my HD system as well, so I know what if feels like to use my Pro Tools HD rig in contrast to the Pro Tools LE rig.
And you can score a Digi003R for around $1000 street price.
Or a Digi002R for around $600.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
One reason why PT is so popular is that the feature set is extremely well chosen for the job. Users don't have to dig through a bunch of features that they will never use to get to the features that they will use all the time. For recording and editing audio the work flow in PT is beautiful.
I use PT, but I use Digital Performer more for creating music, which does have a fuller feature set in certain areas that I need. It's more a matter of using the tool that's right for the job, than anything wrong with PT.
I use PT, but I use Digital Performer more for creating music, which does have a fuller feature set in certain areas that I need. It's more a matter of using the tool that's right for the job, than anything wrong with PT.