Yamaha o2r

I've found that pretty much every single digital board, including this one, I've used sounds really small and clostherphobic...YMMV.
 
I've found that pretty much every single digital board, including this one, I've used sounds really small and clostherphobic...YMMV.
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YAWN...come on man, I've been away for a couple of months on this forum and this is the first remark I see.

I guess the really small and clostherphobic sound isn't coming from the digital units, but from your skills. I know the pre's of the Yamaha are'nothing considered to a SSL, but I dare you and most of the other boardmembers to hear the difference between a normal mix made on a o2R or a analogue console in the same price-range. Same goes for EQ and the whole rest of the bunch.

I know a lot of people don't like the sound of the digitalboards. I understand. I've heard great analogue console like the MCI and Ameks, but consider the price range.

I myself use the 02r for live mixing, and an 'old' Tascam TMD8000 for studio mixing. All recordings are made on the good 'old' Tascam DA-88 recorders. All digital. I use the TC M3000...all digital...guess what......I make a rather good living out of it because people are to believe that my mixes sound good. I do own a bunch of tube preamps/compressors and mics. I do like their sound. I also like the digital sound.

Oh, I forget to mention, that in these days when all soundblaster people are screaming about the 24/96 thingie I am still to record on the good old 16/44.1 standard.

Recording and sound is for 80% in your own ears and skills. 15% comes from your wive for letting you buy all the goodies and the other 5% is equipment.

Saying a 02R sounds small must be coming out of a mouth from somebody with lots of experience on big costly consoles. If so, I completely understand your point of view, but I think you have to explain the situation better. EG :

I've found that pretty much every single digital board, including this one, I've used sounds really small and clostherphobic compared to analogue consoles that cost over $25.000.
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Ok, the reply might give the tendency to think I am a rather agressive person. I'm not. A wienie is macho compared to me. I am just a nice dude having lots of fun recording and mixing.

Ametth...peace on earth..and may the digital force convince you....
 
I hate seeing my friends hung out like this, especially when they make a very good point. So I will bite.

Song A. Track with ART's, Mackie pre's, and the vocals and acoustic guitars with a Focusrite Red. MIXED on a Soundcraft Ghost with only a LXP-5, Alesis Q2, and a Quadraverb for effects, and 2 Behringer Composers, MultiGate, and 1 AutoCom for dynamics processing. Mixed to a Fostex DAT player.



Song B. Tracked with Oram, Drawmer, Focusrite Red pre's. Mixed on a O2R. Had an Eventide and a LXP 15 for effects, but used only the O2R's onboard dynamics because the unit was interfaced with 20 bit ADAT's digitally. Mixed to a 24 bit soundcard via AES/EBU connection. 4 years of me improving my "skills" later even!



THAT is the small sound he is talking about.

The potential between an O2R and even something as cheap as a Soundcraft Ghost is very big. I have to mix on the O2R all the time now, and frankly, it leaves me wanting to take a fucking sledge hammer to it! It is VERY frustrating to have NO ability to create any distortion via channel eq's, or buss masters. The headroom difference because of this is also very large. Digital consoles just don't have it. Don't get me going about the problems with dithering either!

Downside, Ametth and I have enjoyed decent mid priced analog consoles. He owns a Neotek, I used to have a Ghost and have experience on DDA's and Tridents. I agree that recording is mostly skill, BUT, I can guarantee you that you make sacrifice after sacrifice at mix time using a O2R. For doing "demo" work, and when you need to ability to pull back up a mix you worked on for 1 hours two months ago with the client (usually this client is too freakin' cheap to go to a studio with a 'real' console, so they are mixing with YOU now....;)), then great, the 02R is your ticket. But if you want to do any serious mixing, and NEED to apply EQ and dynamic processing, well, I can't think of a WORSE way to go, ESPECIALLY in the under $10K price range, than the O2R!

You may like it, but I wanna hear you work. I can compare it to mine and even ametth's work....:) Somehow though, I just don't think it is going to stack up.

Peace dood.

Eddie
 
I hate seeing my friends hung out like this, especially when they make a very good point. So I will bite.
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What's the good point? All digital console's are crap? Sonusman, I know most off the BBS'ers take your word if it was god's own but I don't. I believe you have the experience on both analogue and digital consoles, and I believe you are truly convinced that digital sucks. I am truly convinced that digital doesn't suck. Consider the difference in cost between a 02r and a Ghost with 40 outboard dynamics. I never said the Ghost sucks. I also didn't say the dynamics of an 02R are excellent. I know they work in live performance, and I know the dynamics and EQ of my Tascam work for heavy studio engineering.

If you're perfomance on the A. example is way better then you;re perfomrance on the B. example, than I guess you have to work on your skills with interfacing digital equipment. ( I haven/t heard them yet because they downlaoding at an astonishing 1.5KB/sec rate....but I'll give my comments later)

I can let you hear songs mixed on digital equipment that sound far and far better than on analogue equipment. I will send you some of my work recorded on digital equipment. I'm not trying to get into a personall disagreement with you, but I de regret people can be such shortminded. Come on man, all digital sucks .......that's like saying I'll never want another girlfriend the day after braking up.
 
"Consider the difference in cost between a 02r and a Ghost with 40 outboard dynamics."

I didn't NEED 40 onboard dynamics with the Ghost.

"If you're perfomance on the A. example is way better then you;re perfomrance on the B. example, than I guess you have to work on your skills with interfacing digital equipment."

4 years later, most of which I mixed A LOT on digital consoles, and still the sound has a sort of "veil" over it, as well as low headroom because of the lack of ability to create distortion in eq's and busses. This has NOTHING to do with my abilities, it is just NOT POSSIBLE on digital consoles. It IS POSSIBLE on analog consoles.

"I can let you hear songs mixed on digital equipment that sound far and far better than on analogue equipment. I will send you some of my work recorded on digital equipment."

Sounds like you need to work on your skills in interfacing with analog gear! ;) (turnaround is fair play now.....)

"I'm not trying to get into a personall disagreement with you, but I de regret people can be such shortminded."

An interesting comment. I have probably mixed FAR more on both formats than you have, yet, after 15 years of engineering work, I am shortminded. Interesting......

Listen dood. You come in blasting ametth with you "you don't know what the heck you are doing if you don't think cheap digital consoles are better than analog consoles in the same price range" shit. I beg to differ. I don't need to convince you, because you have to live with your product. But, ametth made a very good point. trebles ask for thoughts on this console, ametth gave his, and you suggest he don't know what he is talking about. Then you have the nerve to suggest that I should work on my "skills with digital", etc. You should do a reality check, and check the ego at the door. I have NEVER seen you post examples of your work, ametth has, and I have posted MANY. Don't look like a jackass. If you have a comparison point to make, let you WORK do the talking. I hear moron after moron talk about how digital this and that is better than analog this and that, and simply, the digital guys mp3 examples usually suck! Are you one of those? How would I know? You just spout your opinion.

I don't want a riff either. I was more or less covering ametth's back here. I didn't have to, but I thought he made an excellent point. If you want to disagree with me, fine. But let's do it in public here, with mp3's! :) Then those who might be influenced by one opinion or another can at least be influenced by what they HEAR.

Eddie
 
Jeeeeee, Sonusman, what the heck is your problem man...I'm only saying that digital doesn't suck. You tend to have a real problem with people who like digital. you're taking this way to personall. I know you have 15+ years of experience, and I know you are the God of this BBS....yakayakayak.

What's your point...If somebody says 'ALL DIGITAL CONSOLES SUCK', I am offended because I and many other invested alot of mony into these thingies and are quit happy about it. Then you come and say...WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE BEING HAPPY WITH DIGITAL....I AM THE GURU AND I SAY ALL DIGITAL SUCKS.....LISTEN TO MY EXAMPLES...(still downloading)........DON"T ARGUE WITH ME.....I HAVE 15 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE...ALL DIGITAL SOUNDS LIKE CRAP...BLABLABLABLA...

Get reall Sonusman and get the point. I'm not saying analogue sucks....I'm saying digital can sound great when used correct. I know analogue sounds great, I've used plenty of boards (BTW I have like 10 years of pro experience) to know what I'm talking about.
 
BTW post me a email adress for uploading some of my songs...My website only allows a couple of MB's. I will be happy to post you some of my recordings.
 
Typical, you missed my point again.

Make sure to post links to your mp3's in the Clinic.

If you will "settle" with digital consoles, that is your business. I never said ALL digital sucks, just cheap digital that most around here are using. If you are offended that I say that a console you invested in sucks, sorry. The owner of the studio I work at has the same attitude you do, yet, he STILL can't get mixes off his O2R that sound open and clean. He still can't get mixes that have character. He get's to hear my comments a lot too...:) Last summer I had to install my Ghost in the studio to finish a mix because the client was thoroughly dissatisfied with the sound the O2R was delivering. Upon installing the Ghost and pushing the faders up with no processing applied, the client immediately said "THAT is much better". He went on to say that the digital console has a sort of "small, thin sound". If small and thin is what you are after, then I am sure a O2R is just the ticket. I just don't find many clients that want that kind of sound. They usually don't want that sort of "plastic" sound it has either. And certainly, with high channel counts, they don't want all that bad DSP driving the noise floor up through the roof with all the truncating that is going on. They may not know WHAT it is, but they sure can HEAR it. Go mix some of the same stuff that you have done on a O2R on a Ghost and if you have any kind of ears, you will hear the difference immediately. Everybody I know has.

$10K for that stupid O2R with the ADAT optical interfaces and it would not deliver anything close to the same rich, smooth, deep sound that a Ghost with a few Behringer products would. Shit, in those mp3's, I even used Class A pre's and 24 bit mix down for the O2R mix, and it STILL sounds small in comparison to a recording done with 16 bit ADAT's to a 16 bit mix-down format.

I will continue to blast DSP for audio production until something comes out that actually sounds good. The o2r isn't even in the same league with many software mixers!!! I still think software mixing suffers from the same problems as the o2r does. If you can't HEAR it, then keep on keeping on friend. That is your business. I will keep on keeping on favoring analog mixers/processors, yes, even CHEAP ones if the best the low end digital market has to offer is a crappy O2R. Hell, give me a mackie and a bunch of 3630 compressors any day over a O2R!!!

You still haven't addressed the point about you displaying the same attitude towards ametth that you are claiming I display against you. What's the problem? Fair is fair.

As far as being a "god on this bbs", well, that may be so. But I have EARNED that title through EXAMPLE. Step up and show the world just how wrong I am if you don't agree with my assessments of digital gear. That is the quickest way to shut me up. You will indeed just look like a whiny jackass if you just want to try to show me up with words. You see, I either post technical info that is supported by facts, or I post an mp3 to support an opinion. It is just like the mic preamp thread in the Rack forum when I posted an mp3 asking which preamp I used. Nobody who didn't know would have guessed it was an ART on almost EVERY track. So, I made a point about my OPINION based upon something that they could HEAR.

Eddie

I will pass on your other comments. You are talking like a fool.
 
OK you two, settle down:) .
Downside, you were kind enough to give me advice on certain gear some time ago.........much appreciated.
Ed, the few times we have spoken you have been generous with both your time and knowledge...........again, much appreciated, more than you might realise.

The following comments come from an outsider's (as in outside both the US and Europe) perspective.

The market demands/requirements from studios in Europe may have a preference towards that "digital" sound, consequently Downside's opinions would be more than justified......based on the number of satisfied clients he has.
Also, the vast majority of "Pop/Rock" music I have heard from European bands over the years has sounded stilted, mechanical, cold, premeditated..........just lacking natural warmth and soul. I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THIS!!!
Personally, I think it is a cultural thing .........as an example; I have known a number of excellent guitarists of Italian heritage........but without exception they were all technical players WITHOUT feel where Pop/Rock/Blues was concerned.......one of them once said that he felt it was their cultural upbringing that was to blame, but let them play their traditional music and it was fantastic...........go figure.

OK, rant over............but remember, there is always two sides to a story..............in this case my side and then the wrong side

:D

:cool:
 
Ok lets not take this to the edge.

So what are the facts in this discussion.

Sonusman has a problem with the sound of digital consoles.
Downside doesn't have a problem with the sound of digital consoles.
Sonusman clients all have a problem with the sound of digital consoles.
Downside clients don't have a problem with the sound of digital consoles.
Sonusman has no problem with the sound of analogue consoles.
Downside has no problem with the sound of analogue consoles (exept Samick)
Sonunsman shows up with two mixes to show the difference between fat and thin.
Downside listenes to the mixes and thinks : well i hear the difference but what does this tell about the discussion. I can produce a real thin mix on an analogue console and compare it with a (normal) digital production. That doesn't make a comparison in my opinion.
Sonusman dares downside to not only make statements but to clarify them with examples.
Downside thinks what the hell do I have to clarify..I'm only saying the statement that digital always sounds thin has no ground in my view..(I will get those mixes up today of tomorrow)
Etc. etc. etc.

Sonusman I guess we just have to disagree once again ( I remember having the same discussion several months ago) The whole analogue/digital thingie has been discussed over and over, and the opinions are from black to white. We just aren't on the same side. It's the same as with my mom and dad. My dad has a large collections of model-ferrari's and their not all red. My mom doesn't understand why their not all red, she thinks a ferrari should be red, period. Now my dad's trying to convince her of the fact that a yellow or blue ferrari can be just as nice, but she just doesn't agree. If you think of ferrari you think of red. Period.

I am kind of wondering what others have to say on this matter. Am I the only one who thinks that digital consoles can sound great. (BTW I never made a studio mix on the 02R, just Live-mixes. I mix in the studio on the Tascam TMD8000)
 
I've been messing around with a Roland VM3100 for a couple months now and I still haven't decided what I think. At first everything is very clean and sounds fine but I am just now starting to notice things I dont like.

I wish I had an anolog board on hand to compare it with and I havent used any mixers in a few years so their sound is not very fresh in my brain.

I do miss being able to push an anolog mixer but it is also nice keeping everything digital.

I cant imagine using one of these for live use though. You must be working with some pretty small groups. I need all the controls layed out for quick access if I'm doing live mixing.

I hope my inconclusive answer has helped ;)
 
I'll go ahead and agree with myslef that "I've found that pretty much every single digital board, including this one, I've used sounds really small and clostherphobic". And I'll even add a little disclaimer: I dont know how digital boards work out for live use, never did live mixing. In the studio, I'll stick by my original answer.
 
About using the digital boards live....well in the beginning it's a real pain in the ass if you're used to mixing on analogue boards. But after the initial culture shock you get pretty used to it. You're flying round the buttons just as quick as on any analogueboard. Just don't lean accidentally on the recall button (yes been there, done that) during a live performance.

regarding the Roland digital stuff, I have always been told to avoid those...especially when it comes to the converters and gainstage. I don't have any real-life experience on those machines though so this is coming from somebodies else mouth. I myself don't use the preamps or converters of my Tascam digital console. I use outboard custom-made preamps and tube preamps. For converting I let the DTRS recorders do the work. Everything stays in the digital domain afterwards (except for some effect routings)

BTW I do have a little compilation of some of last months studiowork laying here. As Sonusman said...if you talk dirty show dirty...only the same problem as before...my internet-site will only allow a 5MB total, and I'm not going to put the material up on something like a musicshare server because it's all clients stuff and their actually trying to sell some of these recordings. Some fragments aren't even mastered yet. I will be happy to post it to whoever wants to hear it though...just keep in mind its about 10 minutes of music and has a size of +/- 10MB.
 
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