Would this be enough volume?

[Outlaws]

Silicon is the substance from which diodes and transistors are made. Silicone is the substance from which strippers' bodacious ta-tas are made. Unless the 900 of which you speak has had a boob job, I believe you mean the former. ;^)

What's a clipping path? I know what that is in Photoshop... Anyway, all the diodes I've seen in tube amp schematics have been in the HVDC power supply. I believe that what some folks don't like about them is that they don't let the voltage to the power tubes sag under high demand conditions the way that tube rectifiers do.

No offense intended. I'm stuck at work and I'm bored.

No, I mean the boob job. What else would you want a Marshall for?

But really, they use diodes to clip some of the signal in the preamp for a more buzzy sound...the same way a distortion pedal works.

I don't know what you mean about power tubes vs the rectifier sag. Power tubes compress. A tube rectifier "sag" is because it can't keep up in the reaction time. Thats why they went to solidstate recs for 100 watt amps because at that volume a tube rec just doesn't work. (which is why Mesa's use two and three tubes in their rectifiers)

 

[Farview]

What's a clipping path? I know what that is in Photoshop... Anyway, all the diodes I've seen in tube amp schematics have been in the HVDC power supply.

The JCM 900's had a diode clipping circuit on the distortion channel that you couldn't bypass. It was like having a cheap distortion box in front of a JCM800 that you couldn't shut off. That's what the big complaint about the 900 series amps was.

 

[Big Kenny]

yA BETTER NOT BE LOOOKIN' FOR ANY CLEAN SOUNDS OUTTA THEM BUGGERS

 

[hungovermorning]

The DSL and the TSL have that stupid feature that has a delay between switching channels. If you plan on switching channels during a song, it will kill your performance. Believe me, it's rediculous. I'm surprised I haven't heard much Mesa talk for punk. The F-Series is some crazy ripping distortion, definitely worth the cash if you plan on keeping it for a while. Three flavors, 30, 50 and 100. If you can get an older one, do it, things are seriously tanks and the clean doesn't suck. That or maybe a 70s Ampeg, like a V40 or something.

2x12s: I 've always liked open back, lets them breathe a bit, not as boomy. V30s are nice, but they're a bit rolled on the top end for my taste. As weird as this is, I really like the Jensen Neos and they can handle wattage out the wazoo, oh, and they sound great. Very neutral speaker, the tone of the actual amp comes through.

 

[ggunn]

No, I mean the boob job. What else would you want a Marshall for?

But really, they use diodes to clip some of the signal in the preamp for a more buzzy sound...the same way a distortion pedal works.

I don't know what you mean about power tubes vs the rectifier sag. Power tubes compress. A tube rectifier "sag" is because it can't keep up in the reaction time. Thats why they went to solidstate recs for 100 watt amps because at that volume a tube rec just doesn't work. (which is why Mesa's use two and three tubes in their rectifiers)

So that when your waveform reaches a certain amplitude, it runs into a hard rail when the diodes turn on and dump the "excess" signal? Wow, what a terrible design idea. Remind me never to get one of those amps. Hard clipping like that is not at all what tube distortion is all about.

As to the sag, it contributes to the compression in the power section. As the supply voltage drops because of that time lag (when the rectifier tube cannot supply the instantaneous current that the power tubes are demanding), the power tube output drops accordingly. The two and three rectifier tubes in those Mesa amps are in parallel so that the instantaneous current the power supply can provide to the power section is multiplied by two or three and sag is reduced/more quickly recovered from.

As to why amp manufacturers have largely gone to solid state rectifiers, although it is true that they can deliver more instantaneous current than tubes, it is also because they are much cheaper to build and don't use the rectifier tubes that are getting harder and harder to find.

 

[elenore19]

The DSL and the TSL have that stupid feature that has a delay between switching channels. If you plan on switching channels during a song, it will kill your performance. Believe me, it's rediculous. I'm surprised I haven't heard much Mesa talk for punk. The F-Series is some crazy ripping distortion, definitely worth the cash if you plan on keeping it for a while. Three flavors, 30, 50 and 100. If you can get an older one, do it, things are seriously tanks and the clean doesn't suck. That or maybe a 70s Ampeg, like a V40 or something.

2x12s: I 've always liked open back, lets them breathe a bit, not as boomy. V30s are nice, but they're a bit rolled on the top end for my taste. As weird as this is, I really like the Jensen Neos and they can handle wattage out the wazoo, oh, and they sound great. Very neutral speaker, the tone of the actual amp comes through.

Damn, that would suck with the whole delay between switching channels. I was really convinced to get one, hmm...

Yeah, I was thinking open back over closed back, makes me feel good being able to see the speakers haha.

EDIT:
Another question, more pertaining to a cabs.
If I was to pick from these choices, which would you guys suggest?
(these are all 2x12's)
Choice #1
2 Celestion T-100 speakers with Open back. 200watts
Choice #2
2 Celestion Vintage 30's with Closed back. 120watts
Choice#3
1 Celestion Vintage 30 and 1 Celestion G12H30 with Open back. 60watts


Any suggestions?

Thanks!

-Elliot

 

[Outlaws]

Choice#3
1 Celestion Vintage 30 and 1 Celestion G12H30 with Open back. 60watts

That will really limit what head you can use. I wouldn't consider anything over 50 watts. The G12H was designed for use in 412 cabs...which would be a 120 watt rating.

 

[elenore19]

That will really limit what head you can use. I wouldn't consider anything over 50 watts. The G12H was designed for use in 412 cabs...which would be a 120 watt rating.

Alright, thanks, good to know!


-Elliot

 

[Outlaws]

As to why amp manufacturers have largely gone to solid state rectifiers, although it is true that they can deliver more instantaneous current than tubes, it is also because they are much cheaper to build and don't use the rectifier tubes that are getting harder and harder to find.

Actually that is completely incorrect. This is one area that something being cheaper was switched to out of working better. You cannot get a 100 watt amp with a tube rectifier to sound anywhere close to as punchy as with a solidstate rectifier. Randal Smith (thats the name of the Mesa/boogie founder right?) has an article about how it would require 4 tubes in order to get a 100 watt amp to obtain the same amount of punch as a solidstate, and that people still were preferring the solidstate. Not everything in life is a conspiracy lol.

 

[elenore19]

Alright, I'm really a noob to tube heads, and I've got some questions.

So alright.
A tube head gets its distortion by turning up the volume, right?
So if I have a 120 watt head, it would be a bad choice because I would have to have it at very high volume to get a good crunch..Correct? or no?


So If I'm looking into getting a tube head, I should go with a 30-50 watt head with a 2x12 cab?

 

[Outlaws]

Alright, I'm really a noob to tube heads, and I've got some questions.

So alright.
A tube head gets its distortion by turning up the volume, right?
So if I have a 120 watt head, it would be a bad choice because I would have to have it at very high volume to get a good crunch..Correct? or no?

Most amps get their distortion from the preamp tubes, so that can be at any volume. Power tubes compress when the volume goes up, so the you crank the amp, the more the power tubes get used. At about half way up the volume knob (on most amps) volume ceases to increase and the power tubes start to compress nicely.

So If I'm looking into getting a tube head, I should go with a 30-50 watt head with a 2x12 cab?

 

[ggunn]

Actually that is completely incorrect. This is one area that something being cheaper was switched to out of working better. You cannot get a 100 watt amp with a tube rectifier to sound anywhere close to as punchy as with a solidstate rectifier. Randal Smith (thats the name of the Mesa/boogie founder right?) has an article about how it would require 4 tubes in order to get a 100 watt amp to obtain the same amount of punch as a solidstate, and that people still were preferring the solidstate. Not everything in life is a conspiracy lol.

I don't think we are talking about exactly the same thing. I do not doubt what you say about the Mesa 100w amps, but tube rectifiers are getting scarce in amps of any size, and I believe that it is due to a cost and reliability issue as well. No conspiracy is necessary. ;^)

 

[ggunn]

Alright, I'm really a noob to tube heads, and I've got some questions.

So alright.
A tube head gets its distortion by turning up the volume, right?
So if I have a 120 watt head, it would be a bad choice because I would have to have it at very high volume to get a good crunch..Correct? or no?


So If I'm looking into getting a tube head, I should go with a 30-50 watt head with a 2x12 cab?

It depends somewhat on the amp. Some amps get all (or nearly all) their distortion from overdriving their preamp tubes, so with a master volume, as Outlaws says, that can happen at any volume. Some amps run their preamps cooler and drive their power tubes into soft clipping, however, and they have to be cranked to get that happening. I used to have an old 50w Marshall (wish I'd never sold it, though I don't know where I'd use it) that sounded great when it was BTTW, causing much hearing threshold shift and ringing in the ears, but was really anemic when it was turned down.

In any case, and in my experience, tube amps sound better, distortion-wise, when they are cranked. Even amps with master volumes sound better to me when both the preamp and power amp stages are being driven hard, i.e., at or near their max volume, so I play on lower wattage amps.

 

[Outlaws]

I don't think we are talking about exactly the same thing. I do not doubt what you say about the Mesa 100w amps, but tube rectifiers are getting scarce in amps of any size, and I believe that it is due to a cost and reliability issue as well. No conspiracy is necessary. ;^)

Well a lot of amps (50 watts and under) are starting to come with tube recs because the consumers want it back. So yes, a tube rec is better IMO (except for metal), but the amps makers of larger amps needed the solid state recs.

 

[ggunn]

Well a lot of amps (50 watts and under) are starting to come with tube recs because the consumers want it back. So yes, a tube rec is better IMO (except for metal), but the amps makers of larger amps needed the solid state recs.

You see? We don't disagree at all. ;^)

 

[elenore19]

Most amps get their distortion from the preamp tubes, so that can be at any volume. Power tubes compress when the volume goes up, so the you crank the amp, the more the power tubes get used. At about half way up the volume knob (on most amps) volume ceases to increase and the power tubes start to compress nicely.

So alright. With this head...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-Windsor-Tube-Amp-Head?sku=481331

Which would it be? Probably power tubes? so it wouldn't matter which volume?

So in you opinion..haha...would this running through a 120 watt 2x12 cab with 2 vintage 30's be a good choice?

Thanks!

 

[Outlaws]

So alright. With this head...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-Windsor-Tube-Amp-Head?sku=481331

Which would it be? Probably power tubes? so it wouldn't matter which volume?

So in you opinion..haha...would this running through a 120 watt 2x12 cab with 2 vintage 30's be a good choice?

Thanks!

That head would be all preamp distortion because you more than likely will never turn the volume past 9 or 10 o'clock. If you only want preamp distortion just by a tube distortion pedal like the Budda Phatman/Zenman or one of the Mesa pedals.

The power amp section is where the good stuff comes from.

I hate to linger on this, but a 120 watt tube amp (like the Peavey) is giving you way too much for the price. I refuse to believe that $400 buys all that and with quality to boot. ...call me pessimistic.

 

[elenore19]

That head would be all preamp distortion because you more than likely will never turn the volume past 9 or 10 o'clock. If you only want preamp distortion just by a tube distortion pedal like the Budda Phatman/Zenman or one of the Mesa pedals.

The power amp section is where the good stuff comes from.

I hate to linger on this, but a 120 watt tube amp (like the Peavey) is giving you way too much for the price. I refuse to believe that $400 buys all that and with quality to boot. ...call me pessimistic.

Haha, I know I know. I'm skeptical also, but I figure I'll go for it. But yeah, thanks for the advice

But I'm still searching, I'm not getting anything until this summer, so yeah.

 

[ggunn]

So alright. With this head...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-Windsor-Tube-Amp-Head?sku=481331

Which would it be? Probably power tubes? so it wouldn't matter which volume?

So in you opinion..haha...would this running through a 120 watt 2x12 cab with 2 vintage 30's be a good choice?

Thanks!

That amp looks to be a knockoff of an old 100w Marshall. It has a master volume, so you can get all the preamp tube distortion you want at low volume, but those old Marshalls didn't really sing until you cranked them up to get some soft clipping in the power section. For the small to medium gigs you mention, you'll be blowing the walls down if you do that with 4 EL34's.

I'm no expert on Celestions, but aren't the Vintage 30's rated at 30 watts? How can you have only two of them and the cab be rated at 120?

 

[elenore19]

That amp looks to be a knockoff of an old 100w Marshall. It has a master volume, so you can get all the preamp tube distortion you want at low volume, but those old Marshalls didn't really sing until you cranked them up to get some soft clipping in the power section. For the small to medium gigs you mention, you'll be blowing the walls down if you do that with 4 EL34's.

I'm no expert on Celestions, but aren't the Vintage 30's rated at 30 watts? How can you have only two of them and the cab be rated at 120?

Rated at 60 watts.

I'm still considering new options, but for some reason I'm stubborn about that peavey head, it just seems like it'd work for me. But I'm still looking like I said, I'm not getting anything until this summer at the earliest.