word clocks

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jmorris

jmorris

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Im thinking of getting some type of external word clock. It seems people feel it improves the overall sound. I use Alesis hd24, Motu MK3 and Sonar 5. I record 44.1 always dont see need for anything more at this point but wouldnt mind ability to go higher res. Any suggestions? Trackrat I think you use a Lucid? Gen something? and you like it.
 
jmorris said:
Im thinking of getting some type of external word clock. It seems people feel it improves the overall sound. I use Alesis hd24, Motu MK3 and Sonar 5. I record 44.1 always dont see need for anything more at this point but wouldnt mind ability to go higher res. Any suggestions? Trackrat I think you use a Lucid? Gen something? and you like it.
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The Lucid GenX is pretty good, and will be a definite improvement over the HD23 and Mk3 clocks. Subtle, but noticeable if you have even a decent monitoring environment.

The Apogee Big Ben smokes it though. I have heard the same material via the same converters using the Lucid and the Apogee, and the Apogee seems to unveil stuff I was missing with the Lucid.

It is also a LOT more expensive..........:(

Again, I think you will notice a big improvement with the Lucid, and with only doing 44.1, you can get the older, and cheaper model that only does up to 48khz.

I wouldn't worry too much about your sampling rate. While I prefer to work at least 48khz, if I could only work at 44.1khz, I wouldn't be disappointed.
 
Ford Van, ok now I go 44.1 as I "think" there will be a degrade in sound converting from 48 to 44.1 but I very well may be wrong. I use sound forge to convert if I have to. For a clock ...dumb question maybe.....do I need to be concerned about it only being an AD converter or only a DA or does it not matter or do I need an AD/DA, I would think the later would be correct. There is an Apogee big ben on ebay now used for 1000 that does up to 192k, not a bad deal? Here are its spec's
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/bigben.php?show=features
 
Hmmmmmmm....A few years back, me and another engineer ran some meaningful tests to see if we could detect differences between projects at different sampling rates.

We both felt that we could, with the higher sampling rates being desirable to the overall sound, even after SRC.

Trust me, I would just assume save the storage and cpu space with lower sample rates, but have to make the call as to whether the extra storage and reduced cpu capacity are worth it. We both felt it was enough of an improvement to justify it.

Your milage may vary. And please, before some dimwit decides to challenge me on this, go do your OWN fucking tests and do what you think is best for you. ;)
 
ok, but what about conversion? Is there a right and a wrong way to convert from 48k to 44,1k? I have heard different ideas on the subject. I dont mind the extra storage and cpu usage if I get a better sound in the end.
 
word clock samples?

I would love to A/B some samples of audio with say an Apogee clock and then maybe an Alesis HD24 or Motu or some lesser quality clock to really hear the difference. Are ther any manufacturers that post samples? I have not found any. Anyone care to post samples in wave?
 
I run a GenX6 at 44.1. There is a difference between the internal clock and the GenX6. On the other hand, I don't hear enough of a difference between 44.1 and 48k to justify the additional load and storage. YMMV.
 
It's not just about what sample rate sounds better, but what sample rate your A/D converters work best at. I think my 2496 sounds best at 48KHz. It could very well be me imagining things, but I always track at 48KHz. I used to always do 44.1 but I hear a more clear sound and better reverb when using 48Khz.
 
jmorris said:
I would love to A/B some samples of audio with say an Apogee clock and then maybe an Alesis HD24 or Motu or some lesser quality clock to really hear the difference. Are ther any manufacturers that post samples? I have not found any. Anyone care to post samples in wave?
Click to expand...

This is something that's really hard to hear in samples provided by strangers, using music that you are not familiar with. Also, remember that you will be hearing all the audio samples through your own system, which has it's own clock. So how do you hear the subtleties of two different clocks as filtered through your clock?

You need to A/B the different clocks yourself, on your system, on music that you know very well.

That said, an excellent clock will improve things in a subtle but good way. But don't try to save money on a master word clock, that's pointless. If you go for a master clock, spend the money on a good one. Otherwise, don't bother.

I use my Universal Audio 2192 as my master clock.

If I were to go with an external unit, this is one that interests me:

http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/products_iso_ocx.html
 
Like mentioned above, the Lucid will still be a definate upgrade, but the Apogee will be nicer. I have a 2192 like SA and I love it:)

Keepd in mind, a D/A unit will not offer any kind of clocking outs.
 
xstatic said:
Like mentioned above, the Lucid will still be a definate upgrade, but the Apogee will be nicer. I have a 2192 like SA and I love it:)

Keepd in mind, a D/A unit will not offer any kind of clocking outs.
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I think I'll go for the Apogee. It seems to be the standard and most likely I cant go wrong with it.
 
another question(s) with word clocks would be where in the chain is best. Example: With my HD24 and Motu 2408mk3 it would run both units as their clock. When I do a live gig, I just use the HD24 and laptop as backup and quick run of mix for guys. The Apogee cant come into play then. And am I wrong but the computer is not connected to the external word clock? I would think it should be as it is a digital device that would need to be in "sync" with all the others. Maybe it should? There isnt a word clock connector on my computers. Will sound suffer if "good" clock is only used for mixing and not on the front end? I would have asked the guy at Sweetwater this question when talking about the Apogee but he was trying to tell me my HD24 wont record at any other rate than 44.1 or 48k. It is an older version. Even when I read from the manual that it can and even cycled through sampling rate on the machine itself!:confused:
 
When recording anything critical you would indeed want to use the word clock when recording. Especially when recording.

Doesn't your HD24 have a word clock input?
 
Oh yes SA, stupid me, the HD 24 does have a word clock connector. The laptop however does not. For the upcoming live gig I was going to record 96k with the laptop for fun and 44.1 with the hd24. Maybe it wont be worth doing 96k without a good word clock?
Jim
 
If I owned the Apogee, I would clock every device that deals with digital from it. Laptop, Alesis, Motu etc... What soundcard are you using on your computers to interface? Digital devices can usually also receive their signals from s/pdif, AES/EBU,and toslink connections as well as the standard BNC connection:)
 
Also, I beleive that the HD24 does not do 96k unless you have the XR add-on board installed. The main unit and its firmware though probably still has the option in the menu but may not function properly.
 
If I remember what I read correctly long ago, you benefit MORE from a great word clock on the D/A conversion.
 
Your laptop does not need a word clock connection. Your laptop audio interface (your 2408 for example) will lock to either it's word clock input or the SPDIF, AES, or ADAT data stream, if you are using a digital device ahead of it.

DA conversion will of course benefit from being locked to an excellent word clock, but so will AD conversion, assuming the external word clock is better than the unit's internal clock. If jitter is reduced, that helps out on either AD or DA conversions.
 
xstatic said:
Also, I beleive that the HD24 does not do 96k unless you have the XR add-on board installed. The main unit and its firmware though probably still has the option in the menu but may not function properly.
Click to expand...


Yes, it does, strange as that may seem. Even in the manual it states that it can record up to 96k but only 12 tracks. I have also recorded at 96k.....not that I really hear a difference...:p
 
Actually, this is straight from the manual....

"The HD24 provides 24 tracks of
high-resolution 24-bit uncompressed linear
recording at standard sample rates of 44.1kHz or 48
kHz. It supports 12 tracks at sample rates of
88.2kHz and 96kHz when slaved to external digital
products such as A/D, D/A converters, and a
forthcoming 96 kHz option will allow high-sample
rate analog I/O right from the back panel. An
external BNC word clock input is provided for
slaving to external clock sources."
 
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