Will there be a significant difference

P

Piano Recorder

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I’ve never done any recording. My son has been taking piano for five years and has become reasonably accomplished. He’s in a piano club and I want to record him and some of his friends performing their pieces and save on CDs. The recording is for family mementos. He plays a parlor grand (6’4”) in a reasonably acoustically neutral living room (by which I mean only that it is neither an overly bright nor overly absorptive environment (it does, of course, have parallel walls etc.). He plays classical music exclusively and the instrument is a mellow European piano.

My inclination is to think recording directly to a computer may be my best bet. The computer I would use is a 2+ GHz pentium 4 with a 120 GB and a 160 GB hard drive using XP Home (Audigy II sound card). In reading around, I get the impression I should probably use 2 small diaphragm condenser mics to record a grand piano. The equipment that I have seen discussed that seems to make sense would be a choice between Tascam US-122, Lexicon Omega Studio, and DigiDesign Mbox, and some of the mics that appear they might be reasonable choices are Marshall MXL 603, Studio Projects C4, and AT 3032.
As between these, if I were to buy something now without any further input, I think I would get the Lexicon and 2 Marshalls, a couple of mic stands and some cables. I would like to keep my budget under $1,000.

I’m looking for advice and ideas from those who know more about this than I do (that means just about anyone). Specifically, the Marshalls are about half the cost of the other mics. Would a totally inexperienced but reasonably careful person doing what I am trying to do get much benefit from the more expensive mics? Do I need a bunch of stuff I don’t know about? All thoughts greatly appreciated.
 
You might want to look at a portable DAW. The Fostex MR 8 comes to mind, ebay for $200. The marshalls would be fine, IMHO, so would the c4's or mk012's. I think you would be happy with one of those portable units, I use a Korg and it is very handy and the final product, while not "master house" quality, is quite listenable and sounds good to those who I present it to. I've sold quite a few cd's at concerts and such and have had no complaints about quality
 
Since it is just the piano that you are recording and just for family mementos (which I think is a fine thing to want to do) then all you need are the mics (like the MXL 603s) and a preamp, which you then send into the stereo line-in of the Audigy. For the preamp the DMP3 would be a good choice. Then all you need is some recording/editing software.
 
Piano Recorder - the problem may be that you'll take the recommendations given herein, buy the Marshall mics and various other pieces of equipment, read lots, set it all up, wind your son up, do the recordings and then listen back and, seeing you appear to know something about sound already judging from your post, you'll think - "you know, it doesn't really sound quite as good as I thought it would - there's a lot of midrange there and the playing sounds swamped in places, even though my son has played the pieces very well" - and that, my friend, is the first step on the slippery slope to hell - you'll be back here telling us that you have a pair of Marshall mics and whatever other gear you have and that you've just done your first recording of your son's piano playing and it's a little disappointing and very middy - and some sage here will go "ah yes, well Marshall SDCs aren't the best for what you're doing - what you really needed was a pair of (insert brand here) small diaphragms and a decent preamp - and then everyone will agree with aforesaid sage and you'll be convinced and go out and buy recommended mics and preamp and then your wife will start wondering about where all the credit limit went to when she's trying to buy the shopping at the supermarket and the checkout chick says "Sorry, transaction declined", and she's going to go home and ask you what the HELL did you spend all that money for without telling me, and you'll defend yourself, because it's an INVESTMENT and it will sound really great in the end, TRUST ME, and so she'll calm down a little and you'll take all your new gear, and get your son all going, and do your recordings again, and while better than the first lot, still aren't quite as good as you'd imagined, and then you'll be back here again, perhaps more often than is healthy, and your wife will be starting to worry about your OBSESSION over all this and be searching the internet herself for a support group to help her deal with you and the rising use of obscure terms like COMPRESSION and SIGNAL CHAIN in your general conversation, and round about here your son will decide that this is all a bit stressful and perhaps he doesn't enjoy playing the piano as much as he thought he did and he might take a little break for a while, but you've just worked out EXACTLY WHAT YOU NEED TO DO to get the perfect recording, this time, you know, you absolutely know, and it will only cost a little more money, but now your son has morphed from a talented young player into an UNCOOPERATIVE GODAMMNED MUSICIAN who just won't play what you want him to do, and then, while trying to get your head around the nuances of GAIN STRUCTURE on this board, you'll be busted by your boss for innappropriate use of the company's internet bandwith, lose your job, your wife will freak out totally, your son will be horrified that such consequences could come from a simple hobby like piano playing and vow never to touch the instrument again as MUSIC IS EVIL, but right now you know, you absolutely know, you 100 % are TOTALLY SURE, you have found the LIGHT OH LORD and can get that perfect recording, if you only you can find a suitable piano player...

Meanwhile, the family has moved interstate...

Turn back Piano Recorder, turn back... you're about to enter the first circle of HELL.

But to answer your question, no, I don't believe with what you're trying to do, spending more money on mics is advisable at this point in time. That will come later.

Welcome Piano Recorder.... WELCOME!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
Hey the Fostex MR8 suggestion is a good one. My friend cranks out decent demo quality stuff with it anyhow. Easy to use too so you can focus on the music.

War
 
Excellent results with Oktava MC012/ Audiophile 2496 to HD

I recently upgraded my recording setup for my Kawai grand (KG-5D 6'8"). This is very bright piano, though with a very deep bass. The room is reflective.

I have always recorded my acoustic piano to HD. I recently:

1. replaced the failed second HD with a WD 80GB
2. replaced the Audiowerk 2 soundcard with an M-Audio Audiophile 2496
3. replaced the 8X CD- R with a Memorex 52X

The recording chain is:

Oktava MC012 cardioid 10dB pads in > Peavey VMP-2 tube mic pre> Audiophile 2496 > Dell Pentium 750 WIN98SE w/ dedicated 80GB music HD > Cool Edit 2.0 > CD-R

The Oktavas are placed about 10" apart in the bentside about 16" above the hammers, one towards the bass and one generally towards the treble.

The results after one week have far exceeded my expectations. I have recorded in 16/44 and 24/96 without EQ and the amazing improvement in the Audiophile card really makes me appreciate the Oktavas. The placement on these to me seems quite easy too.

But the best part is that these results came at a price:the Audiophile 2496 was $99 including shipping from Sweetwater and the Oktavas are commonly available at $99 each.

Given that you already have the computer set up- I believe you can get good basic equipment for the $300 -plus the mic pre. I happen to really like the Peavey VMP-2 (new $700) after putting in NOS tubes- but these are unfortunately discontinued. If you are attracted to a tube mic pre, I suggest getting a real all-tube design if you can. Still, I think you could get a very fine sound well under your budget, perhaps with a Symetrix 302 for the mic pre.

The Oktavas- Audiophile combination is great!

Cheers,

Bambi B
 
Armistice said:
Piano Recorder - the problem may be that you'll take the recommendations given herein, buy the Marshall mics and various other pieces of equipment, read lots, set it all up, wind your son up, do the recordings and then listen back and, seeing you appear to know something about sound already judging from your post, you'll think - "you know, it doesn't really sound quite as good as I thought it would - there's a lot of midrange there and the playing sounds swamped in places, even though my son has played the pieces very well" - and that, my friend, is the first step on the slippery slope to hell - you'll be back here telling us that you have a pair of Marshall mics and whatever other gear you have and that you've just done your first recording of your son's piano playing and it's a little disappointing and very middy - and some sage here will go "ah yes, well Marshall SDCs aren't the best for what you're doing - what you really needed was a pair of (insert brand here) small diaphragms and a decent preamp - and then everyone will agree with aforesaid sage and you'll be convinced and go out and buy recommended mics and preamp and then your wife will start wondering about where all the credit limit went to when she's trying to buy the shopping at the supermarket and the checkout chick says "Sorry, transaction declined", and she's going to go home and ask you what the HELL did you spend all that money for without telling me, and you'll defend yourself, because it's an INVESTMENT and it will sound really great in the end, TRUST ME, and so she'll calm down a little and you'll take all your new gear, and get your son all going, and do your recordings again, and while better than the first lot, still aren't quite as good as you'd imagined, and then you'll be back here again, perhaps more often than is healthy, and your wife will be starting to worry about your OBSESSION over all this and be searching the internet herself for a support group to help her deal with you and the rising use of obscure terms like COMPRESSION and SIGNAL CHAIN in your general conversation, and round about here your son will decide that this is all a bit stressful and perhaps he doesn't enjoy playing the piano as much as he thought he did and he might take a little break for a while, but you've just worked out EXACTLY WHAT YOU NEED TO DO to get the perfect recording, this time, you know, you absolutely know, and it will only cost a little more money, but now your son has morphed from a talented young player into an UNCOOPERATIVE GODAMMNED MUSICIAN who just won't play what you want him to do, and then, while trying to get your head around the nuances of GAIN STRUCTURE on this board, you'll be busted by your boss for innappropriate use of the company's internet bandwith, lose your job, your wife will freak out totally, your son will be horrified that such consequences could come from a simple hobby like piano playing and vow never to touch the instrument again as MUSIC IS EVIL, but right now you know, you absolutely know, you 100 % are TOTALLY SURE, you have found the LIGHT OH LORD and can get that perfect recording, if you only you can find a suitable piano player...
Click to expand...

Ha Ha Ha, ok, there is some truth to this statement, and some hilarity. Insert any other instrument you can think of for "Piano recorder" and you've got about everybody involved in this hobby nailed. Ok, maybe most of us don't ruin our families and jobs, but it sure does get addictive, and freakin' expensive. I say that, yet I'm trying to save up for a Sudio Projects B1 mic. . .maybe I'm just poor - they're like 80 bucks. Maybe I could put it on my credit card (which has got other gear on it already) and buy a pair of those marshals for recording my acoustic guitar. . .then I could get a better pre-amp than what's on my behringer mx mixer and my recordings would sound a whole lot cleaner. Oh, and if I would shell out 500 dollars for the new cubase, 4 or 500 more for some VST effects and virtual instrument plugins from Steinberg, and $200 for a decent midi controller I could add drums, strings, piano, bass, and have a "virtual band". . . . . see - there I go again. Too bad the fact remains that I'm a broke student. (maybe if I upgraded my delta 44 with a delta 1010 and bought a drum set along with 7 or 8 more mic's to mike it, and 4 dmp3's for pre-amps I could teach myself drums and record those, too. . . . . . . . .they'd sound a lot better than the midi drums that I would program. . . . .hmmmmmm)

Don't worry, piano recorder. . .You'll have tons of fun with this. You'll probably spend a bit, but I think it's a great hobby to have. Even if you don't have fun with it, if your son is musically inclined at all, he'll probably get into it, and you can give your gear to him, and nurture a great hobby along the way. If neither of you like it, you can sell your gear to me real cheap, haha.

By the way, I'll second whoever said anything about the m-audio soundcard stuff. Like I said, I have a delta 44 from M-Audio and I like it a lot. You can even get them on ebay for pretty cheap (around $125 - $150). In my opinion, cards like the audiophile and the delta series stuff is going to sound way better than normal pc audio cards not specifically designed for recording. You can also get decent recording software for pretty cheap (think N-track), so don't worry about spending a ton on that, either, at least not for now. There, I've actually said something that addresses a question of yours in this forever long post.

-Brian
 
Piano Recorder,

One more thing I might mention. Look into used gear. Here's the way many people approach home recording. They buy some decent entry level stuff (like the marshal mics and the m-audio delta 44 cards, etc.), eventually they get better at recording and really enjoy it, so they want better gear, like a sound card with more inputs and better quality mics and monitors. They sell the decent entry level stuff to put money towards higher end stuff. My point is that lots and lots of used gear is being sold just because people upgrade to better stuff, not because it is poor quality or defective. Places like the advertisement link on this message board and ebay are great places to find great deals on really good gear. You'll save a ton of money.

-Brian
 
Mr Armistice cannot be improved upon. It's the slippery slope, all right, and it leads ever down. Hey, I just spent a week recording my stepson and his playing partner in the Austin area over nearly a week...and approximately $$$$$$$$$$$ worth of gear. Now I'm mixing and thinking, damn! I need a better preamp...

...and another LDC mic...


...probably some Wave plugings (they seem to be the best, but they are pricey)...


...and...


I love what I'm doing.
 
borrow a sony minidisk recorder and the stereo mic that is made for it, use an extension cable to separate the recorder fromthe mic to limit the noise, buy a new blank minidisk or 3 and try it out. plug the minidisk player into your home stereo or just use headphones, if it is ok, then play it into a recordable cd unit. or find someone w/ a pc and some free software that can record a long wave file. burn an audio cd. try it in your car or home cd player. if it sucks, then find someone locally who'll record it for you for $50 or something. They'll have the gear you don't want to buy.
 
Why not rent some gear, to help prevent the inevitable walk "down the slippery slope to recording hell" as was so elequently summed up earlier. You won't be shelling out mega dollars to make a momento CD. If you enjoyed the work, and want to try it again, then buy some stuff, if not, return the rented gear. No harm done. You still get to learn and try things yourself, with very little risk.

But the most important thing about recording a piano, and I know that I end up putting this on every post about piano recording, but I'm a piano tuner (hence in tune audio), and it has to be mentioned, get the piano tuned first, and tell the technician your planning on recording. Doesn't matter what equipment you had, or how good your son plays, that nice momento cd will be ruined by bad tuning, or a squeek in the pedal.

Also one very important technique for you son is to not thump the damper pedal. Piano teachers never seem to teach their students proper pedal technique. I once went out and bought a classical piano cd by a very very famous, and fantastic pianist, and the whole thing was ruined to me because during the whole record, you could softly hear the pedal being thumped down. What a waste of money that cd was. and boy did that pianist every sound amateur.
 
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