Will it never end????

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foo

foo

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Now I have to make a choice in how to get sound from a keyboard/module/sampler into the computer.

Is the most efficient way to go through a midi interface and into a USB port, or through the S/PDIF in/out on the soundcard, or through the 'optical' in/out on the soundcard?

Is there a difference - quality? latency? compatibility with Cubase? anything I haven't thought of?

Thankyou,

foo
 
Keep in mind that MIDI is not sound, it's just data. I'd just run it like you do any other line-level signal.
 
... but if it has an S/PDIF out, use that (but only if you have an S/PDIF in on the soundcard, of course)...

-AlChuck
 
Yes, Mona does have an S/PDIF in (and out, and 'Optical', too).

So I need to be looking for a sound source with S/PDIF, is that it?

Does it really make a difference?


Here's an update on Mona from the manual:

The output volume is controlled by sliders in the digital domain - but what you are doing by bringing the sliders down is reducing the number of bits available.

Does that mean that the sound is degraded?

By having the inputs set to almost clip, and the outputs set to max, you run Mona at the full 24-bit dynamic range.

The manual recommends that you leave the output volume controls set to max and control the volume from the external mixer.

The guy I talked to at Echo before I bought Mona told me that if I wasn't going with a mixer, Mona was a better choice than Layla - now here it says in the manual -
use your mixer.

That doesn't sound too good - anyone have any idea what that will mean when I actually try to use this card in terms of sound quality?

I guess I have to control my volume from the monitor amp - which is definitely not the way I want to do it. I'll have to see how the sound changes when I turn it down from the program.

Any suggestions or comments are most welcome.

foo

[Edited by foo on 09-03-2000 at 08:21]
 
So I need to be looking for a sound source with S/PDIF, is that it?
Click to expand...
No, you shouyld be looking for a sound source that you like the sound of. If it has S/PDIF outs, great.

Does it really make a difference?
Click to expand...
Some... but not a staggering one.

from the manual: The output volume is controlled by sliders in the digital domain - but what you are doing by bringing the sliders down is reducing the number of bits available. Does that mean that the sound is degraded?
Click to expand...
Yes. When you use fewer bits, you are effectively reducing your resolution.

The manual recommends that you leave the output volume controls set to max and control the volume from the external mixer.

The guy I talked to at Echo before I bought Mona told me that if I wasn't going with a mixer, Mona was a better choice than Layla - now here it says in the manual -
use your mixer.

That doesn't sound too good - anyone have any idea what that will mean when I actually try to use this card in terms of sound quality?
Click to expand...

I think this was just a poor choice of words. They really mean "control the volume from your external monitoring system." This could be a mixer used to drive your monitors, or an amplifier used to drive your monitors, or whatever other way you might have hooked things up.

I guess I have to control my volume from the monitor amp - which is definitely not the way I want to do it. I'll have to see how the sound changes when I turn it down from the program.
Click to expand...

Why the hell not? It's the only reasonable way. In the analog domain, you would never control the final level of your mix by ignoring your master faders and adjusting only the individual channel faders... Is there some reason you have for wanting to do it this way?

-AlChuck
 
AlChuck,

Could you go into more detail of how you would adjust volume controls for each track without decreasing resolution? What is the best way?
This mix will have to be digital to burn to CD. And everytime you convert AD to DA and back again sound degradation occurs so how is everyone getting around this?
 
Now we're getting somewhere :)

Hi Al,

I need to be more specific -

One of the reasons I decided on Mona was that I didn't need a mixer - I was lead to believe that I didn't need a mixer with Mona (by the guy at Echo - Tom Stekkinger).
I called him asking about Layla, and based on my conversation with him, I thought I could mix from within Cubase and/or the Mona soundcard and ...

quote:
'... Mona is the preferred card for people who don't want to use a mixer...'

Mixers are great and I'm pretty comfortable with them - but if I can do it effectively without a mixer (and I was lead to believe I could), I'd rather not have the additional piece of equipment in the wiring chain.

If I had a mixer, I agree, no problemo, use the master faders and let's get a take done.
But I don't have a mixer.

My amp has two volume controls, one for each side - they are about a foot apart, and are almost flush with the surface that they are mounted in.

It gets pretty warm when in use, so I had plans for putting it a considerable distance away from me and my other gear in a set-and-forget mode.


As for S/PDIF, given the choice between two synths which I like equally, one has S/PDIF and one doesn't, is it best to hook it up using the S/PDIF or ... apart from MIDI, with which I am familiar, is there any other way?

Many thanks for your interest in this,

foo


[Edited by foo on 09-03-2000 at 14:48]
 
foo,

So the Mona doesn't have any control over the analog volume after the D-to-A conversion?

Why not get a cheap line mixer so you can have a single control? This would let you patch in headphones too. Something like the lowest-priced Behringer (MX604A?) costs about $75 or so.

Other than that, I'd say doing it the painful way by adjusting the speaker volumne controls is better than reducing your output resolution.

Re the synth box, if you had an S/PDIF out, that would likely be the best way to send its signal into the Mona. The other way would be a pair (typically) of analog outs into a pair of the Mona's channels. The MIDI port obviously can only be used for MIDI data and won't transfer any audio anywhere.

elle,

I just set the soundcard outputs all the way up and adjust the level of what I hear through the mixer I have that's driving my monitors.

People don't get around A/D and D/A conversions, they just try to minimize them. Every piece of gear that has only analog ins and outs will obviously need to have its output signal digitized for recording. Usually not at all an issue if you do it once or twice. If you have a piece of gear with a digital output, using that will be better if you can because you miss the two conversion steps. So that's what folks do.

-AlChuck
 
The beat goes on ...

AlChuck said:
foo,

So the Mona doesn't have any control over the analog volume after the D-to-A conversion?

Right. If that's what the previous information means.

Why not get a cheap line mixer so you can have a single control? This would let you patch in headphones too. Something like the lowest-priced Behringer (MX604A?) costs about $75 or so.

Mona does have a headphone out with it's own volume control knob which disables outputs 1 and 2. I'm not sure that I want all my high-end (for me it's high-end :)) gear running through a $75 mixer. The whole point of going digital was to try and get everything super clean.

Other than that, I'd say doing it the painful way by adjusting the speaker volumne controls is better than reducing your output resolution.

I absolutely agree - but what a pain in the you know what.

Re the synth box, if you had an S/PDIF out, that would likely be the best way to send its signal into the Mona. The other way would be a pair (typically) of analog outs into a pair of the Mona's channels. The MIDI port obviously can only be used for MIDI data and won't transfer any audio anywhere.

Elle did suggest using audio for everything. I thought that the way it was done was to put mics through the breakout box and into the soundcard, and the sound source through midi into the USB bus and the dancing megabytes inside somehow magically found each other and got in sync (Word CLock? midi? Cubase dating service? or somehow!)

foo


-AlChuck
Click to expand...
 
Really... I wouldn't get caught up in worrying about S/PDIF. Unless it's a really crappy keyboard, the line outs should be very quiet. The keyboard puts out a line level signal, just jack-in and record. Mic's are going to pick up much more noise, keyboards should be the easy part.

About bit resolution: quieter signals use fewer bits no matter what. Each sample is a number representing the amplitude of the sound at that instant. Louder sound, bigger number. These numbers fly by at the sample rate (44,100 times per second, for example). Think of the number of bits as the number of "digits". In decimal, if we have 3 digits, we can hold a number from 000 to 999. To represent 825, we need all three digits available. To represent 8 we only need one sifnificant digit. If you're recording with 24 bits, each sample will be 24 bits long, but quieter parts use fewer significant bits (the higher bits will just be leading zeroes). This is one of the things exploited by MP3 and other compression algorithms (quieter parts can be compressed better because fewer significant bits are needed). Simplified, of course, but thats the gereral idea.

[Edited by pglewis on 09-03-2000 at 18:48]
 
So does that mean that even though the resolution is less at lower volume, the quality of the sound is not compromised?

foo
 
I guess that would depend on the material. If you have a 2 bar stop, for example, you might want complete silence. That doesn't take any bits to represent (well... the bits are still there but they're all zeroes), but the sound is exactly what you want. If an entire track has a very low volume, you're definitely not getting the most out of the resolution available. Thus, everyone always suggests recording digital tracks at the highest level you possibly can without going over (sounds like the Price is Right, eh?). In practice, I just try to get something reasonable without too much noise. Obsessing over the levels just keeps me from getting any actual recording done. I've also found pretty good "base" levels through experimentation... that makes life easier.
 
Excellent explanations, pglewis...

Thanks for pitching in!
 
So I hope what you just said was:

Record with as much input signal as the soundcard will handle (but don't go to distortion) and the playback will sound fine.
Is that true?

Go ahead, make my day :)

Please.

foo
 
... at whatever volume I choose to play it back at, and with no analog volume control after the D to A conversion?

Fingers crossed hopefully {|-:]

foo
 
You should be able to get by. I run from my card's outs to a mixer, and I leave it set to unity gain for the most part.

It sounds inconvenient, though. I can just pull the faders if the phone rings or something. And then there's the issue of adjusting playback levels while dubbing. A small mixer may end up high on your wish list, once you get going.

One other quick thing... don't get the idea that you'll get the best possible resolution for your sound by compressing the living snot out of everything. Those samples are flying by fast, and it's very nice for the ears if there are some loud ones and some quiet ones. It's only a problem if a whole track or mix is at a low level and could easily come up.
 
Pglewis,
Thanks for your input on resolution, forgot to think of it that way. I'm composing orchestrations, so I would be using lots of fade in/outs, soft/loud. I was thinking that I could keep it loud and then compress the hell out of it,til I read what you said.
 
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