Why wouldn't I want to close mic toms?

[BeagleFaceHenry]

1st off, I'm in the "micing" camp, not "miking".

I know a professional engineer (live sound mostly, I don't think he does any recording) who staunchly believes that you never need more than 4 mics on a drum kit.

I'm recording 'live' in a small room with 4 mics on the kit. I'm having a hard time EQing my overheads to make the toms pop. Furthermore, the snare really stands out and makes the toms sound even more muffled by comparison. I have tom mics but haven't gone there yet.

My question is why wouldn't I want to close mic the toms? What's the harm? What's the benefit? Should I close mic? Is he just crazy?
Related question, what's the deal with phases when talking about micing drums? My guess is if the mics are at different distances, they'll catch the hit at different times...but that's just a guess.

 

[RAMI]

I know a professional engineer (live sound mostly, I don't think he does any recording) who staunchly believes that you never need more than 4 mics on a drum kit.

That's ludicrous, even for live. But if we're talking about recording, it's a stupid thing to be that stubborn about. And just to be clear, I only use 4 mics to record my drums, so I don't have any personal stake in agreeing or disagreeing with him. But to "staunchly believe that you never.......(anything)" is kind of narrow minded and often counter-productive. Why wouldn't you use as many mics as you can and then decide which ones to use or ditch when it comes time to mix.

To answer part of your question, one potential problem with micing your toms is possible phase issues with your overheads. But those phase issues also exist with your snare and kik, potentially. But, either way, they're fixable problems. They shouldn't be THE reason for not micing your toms or anything else.

 

[Steenamaroo]

+1 ^^.

I mean, there are sounds that you just can't get without close micing. Like everything, it has its place.
Most people around here recommend a four mic setup for simplicity for beginners, but nobody's going to flat out say you should never deviate!

You're right about the phase thing but it's not necessarily something that needs fixed all the time.
There are phase issues and there are phase discrepancies, you know?
Not everything reaches your ears at the same time as everything else, so keep that in mind when making decisions.

I mean, it's good practice to centre your snare in the overheads, if that's what you want, and you'd make every effort to reduce any phase difference there, but how can you do that with close mics vs overheads. There's a good chance you wont even want to.

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

to "staunchly believe that you never.......(anything)" is kind of narrow minded and often counter-productive. Why wouldn't you use as many mics as you can and then decide which ones to use or ditch when it comes time to mix.
.

That's exactly what I was thinking. He's the most experienced person I know personally, and he's always happy to talk technique, but I think he's so comfortable in his big theater with a state-of-the-art board and high end mics that he can't always relate to the little guy.

How do fix phase issues? Physically nudging the transients?

 

[Steenamaroo]

That's exactly what I was thinking. He's the most experienced person I know personally, and he's always happy to talk technique, but I think he's so comfortable in his big theater with a state-of-the-art board and high end mics that he can't always relate to the little guy.

How do fix phase issues? Physically nudging the transients?

If it's something you want to do you can certainly move the tom tracks so that the transients compliment the same transient in your overhead tracks but, again, don't just do it because you feel you should.
If you're going for it you'll want to make sure the polarity is the same too.

Where do you stop, though? Are you moving the snare track next? The same circumstances apply. What about the kick? And the kick relative to the snare mic? There's bleed there, right?
My point is you won't get it perfect unless you're using one microphone, and what hits your ears in the room isn't perfectly lined up either.

Listen before you make decisions. There may not be an audible problem.

Sometimes a phase difference is the whole point. Think room mic.

 

[miroslav]

I'm having a hard time EQing my overheads to make the toms pop. Furthermore, the snare really stands out and makes the toms sound even more muffled by comparison.

Try repositioning your OH mics.....you should be able to get a better balance between snare and toms.

 

[Farview]

That's just silly. Using 4 mics on a kit will get you a certain sound that is good for a lot of stuff, but it isn't appropriate for every style of music. If you are doing something that requires close mics on the toms, then use them.

I couldn't imagine only using 4 mics in a live situation, I would be more likely to do it recording than live.

The best way to avoid phase issues is to make sure the overheads are equidistant to the snare. As you've noticed, the snare is the loudest thing in the overheads and will be the most troublesome if there is a descrepency.

I never have a problem with phase because I never base the sound if the kit on the overheads, so I have them turned down kind of low, so there isn't enough interaction between the toms in the overheads to cause a problem, even if the phase is a bit off.

 

[GONZO-X]

some amazing classic recordings used multiple mics on every piece of kit.

and a few that only used one mic.

LOL

since there are no rules, i'd say, go ahead and mic them.....


you do not have to use them.

but if you need them,
voila.


if you do not mic them, you'll never know what you missed.

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Great stuff guys!!
I'm getting the impression that nobody is really against close micing toms. It makes sense to me.
I'll throw another challenge into the works. I only have 4 tracks available for the kit (after grouping/routing). The kick stands alone. I don't want to group the overheads together because I want to keep the panning/separation. I was planning on grouping the toms and snare together. So:
1-Kick
2-Snare & toms
3-OH Left
4-Oh Right
Is this a bad idea?
Nobody has really had any glaring reasons that close micing should be avoided, I'd love to hear if someone does.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

A good natural sound can be had through four mics on a nice sounding, well played kit. But to generalize that into a rule for all drums kits in all styles of music is silly. When I'm mixing live on my 16-channel board I might economize on drum mics, but that doesn't mean it's better, just that it's good enough for a live mix. The same kit in the studio might get 7-9 mics.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Great stuff guys!!
I'm getting the impression that nobody is really against close micing toms. It makes sense to me.
I'll throw another challenge into the works. I only have 4 tracks available for the kit (after grouping/routing). The kick stands alone. I don't want to group the overheads together because I want to keep the panning/separation. I was planning on grouping the toms and snare together. So:
1-Kick
2-Snare & toms
3-OH Left
4-Oh Right
Is this a bad idea?
Nobody has really had any glaring reasons that close micing should be avoided, I'd love to hear if someone does.

I like to pan my toms, but more importantly they may need some individual adjustment after tracking. Having only four inputs might be a good reason to do without tom mics.

 

[RAMI]

Great stuff guys!!
I'm getting the impression that nobody is really against close micing toms. It makes sense to me.
I'll throw another challenge into the works. I only have 4 tracks available for the kit (after grouping/routing). The kick stands alone. I don't want to group the overheads together because I want to keep the panning/separation. I was planning on grouping the toms and snare together. So:
1-Kick
2-Snare & toms
3-OH Left
4-Oh Right
Is this a bad idea?
Nobody has really had any glaring reasons that close micing should be avoided, I'd love to hear if someone does.

After everything that was said, I think in your case, going the 4 mic route might end up being the best way after all. But that's only because you're limited to 4 channels. You could try to group the toms and snare together, but I think I foresee that leading to more problems than solutions. I don't know for sure, though, it's not something I've ever tried.

I'll tell you what I do that might work for you, too:

Like I said, I only use 4 mics; Kik, snare and 2 overheads.

But what I do after that is duplicate my overheads track, and then go through it and cut out everything but my tom hits. Voila, pseudo-mic'd toms. I now have a "tom" track that I can do whatever I want with. It's not as long and tedious to do as it might sound since it's not as if you usually hit toms all through a song. See if that works for you.

 

[RAMI]

....double fucking post......

 

[Dogbreath]

Like I said, I only use 4 mics; Kik, snare and 2 overheads.

But what I do after that is duplicate my overheads track, and then go through it and cut out everything but my tom hits. Voila, pseudo-mic'd toms. I now have a "tom" track that I can do whatever I want with. It's not as long and tedious to do as it might sound since it's not as if you usually hit toms all through a song. See if that works for you.

THIS /\/\ !

I've used this exact technique on many projects and it works just fine. In fact, I'm wrapping up a drum project of 10 songs that I've been doing for a few months and only in the more recent tunes did I have enough mics to mic the toms.
But doing what RAMIDude suggested (and what I've been doing for awhile now) is how I'm able to get my drums to sound more cohesive throughout the whole CD. It's not exactly the same but really damned close.
Only a drummer would notice.

 

[BroKen_H]

Glyn Johns technique of setting the overheads is sound. But as far as sticking with four mics total...pbhhhht!
Stick a mic on each drum and one on the bottom head of the snare. Use 8, 10, 20 mics if you want. Someone up above hit the nail. If you record 4 mics, you have 4 signals to consider; four sounds. If you mic with 12 mics, you have 12 sources and 12 sounds. You may only use four of them, but you have more to work with to get the sound you WANT. More is not always better, but experiment and get to know where the mics sound best on YOUR kit, when YOU record. Also, experiment with different types of mics in different positions (withing reason). I mean you don't particularly want a pair of 57s for overheads...but it might give a sound you'll want to use later (probably not)

Wow, never mind, didn't see the second page where all the only 4 channels was listed.

 

[Farview]

I would try thr glyn johns setup if I only had 4 inputs.

If you really had to, I would group the toms and the overheads together. that way you could pan the a bit and the kick and snare are still separate.

The kick and snare should be separate because they are the main things and generally need more specialized EQ.

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Awesome perspective everyone! Thanks for the insight!

 

[mixsit]

...I'm recording 'live' in a small room with 4 mics on the kit. I'm having a hard time EQing my overheads to make the toms pop. Furthermore, the snare really stands out and makes the toms sound even more muffled by comparison. I have tom mics but haven't gone there yet..

Just to add, then to the extent you are not going for additioinal individual control (via more mics), then the more the kit's 'mix and tones have to come from the kit and the drummer's balances in hitting them.

 

[Farview]

Exactly. If you do the gly johns method and end up with the hi hat too loud and the toms too quiet, the srummer will need to lay off the hat and hit the toms harder.
The drummer is mixing the drums.

 

[mixsit]

...But what I do after that is duplicate my overheads track, and then go through it and cut out everything but my tom hits. Voila, pseudo-mic'd toms. I now have a "tom" track that I can do whatever I want with. It's not as long and tedious to do as it might sound since it's not as if you usually hit toms all through a song. See if that works for you.

THIS /\/\ !

I've used this exact technique on many projects and it works just fine. In fact, I'm wrapping up a drum project of 10 songs that I've been doing for a few months and only in the more recent tunes did I have enough mics to mic the toms.
But doing what RAMIDude suggested (and what I've been doing for awhile now) is how I'm able to get my drums to sound more cohesive throughout the whole CD. It's not exactly the same but really damned close.
Only a drummer would notice.

Hardly ever mic toms here (the music I record hardly needs it), but I'm going to try to keep this in mind. I can see where this could be a real handy bit to use.
Phumbs oop' guys