Who uses Apple computers?

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Ma/T

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Hello everyone!
Well it looks like desktop-recording days with my 400Mhz iMac DV G3 are getting more strenuous with all of the plug-ins, virtual instruments, and tracks per songs I am demanding. I want to take the leap into a new computer that will offer me the very best, but since I definitely cannot afford to buy computers frequently I want something that will take me the distance at a justifiable cost for what I will use in it.
Although the new iMacs are really cool looking, I can get the same speed computer in an eMac for less money. What is the deal with that anyway?? I don't understand the drawback with getting the same speed eMac instead of an iMac. All I can figure is you pay for the cool design. So anyway, It looks like I am going to go with the faster eMac model (the 800Mhz Power PC G4 with SuperDrive priced at $1,499.97) or one of the Dual processing G4 towers. The two towers I am considering are the cheaper two of the three. One is a Dual 867Mhz PowerPC G4 with combo drive and the other is a Dual 1Ghz PowerPC G4 with the SuperDrive. The first priced at $1,699.97 and the other at $2,499.97. That's a big difference in cash! I haven't even included the $100 monitor I would have to buy along with the tower not to mention the $250 AppleCare protection plan (though for the eMac the plan costs about $150)! Expandability is a big plus with a tower, and maybe I don't necessarily need the DVD-burning option (though that would be really neat!), but at $1500 the eMac doubles my current Mhz and with a better processor chip; but I guess I might eventually run into the same 'dead-end' problem I have today with this RAMmed-out, all-in-one unit in front of me.
Anyway, what I would really appreciate from Mac DAW users is their experienced advice with computers they have, whether they be one of the ones I mentioned or otherwise, and their power needs (both satisfied and desired).
How much power does one really need before they "bottom out" and the issue becomes transparent? I run Emagic Logic Audio Platinum with the EXS24 as the core of my work environment and I am really running low on CPU performance and speed. I would love to hear any advice on which computer I should buy. Thank you very much!

Oh yea, also I swear that I heard that Logic Audio and other DAW apps do not yet utilize the Dual processors. I know that graphic programs like Photoshop take advantage of them but I have the idea stained in my head that professional audio apps don't utilize the Duals yet, is this true or did I pick that up from an invalid source? Thanks again! Any and all feedback would be reeaally appreciated!!
Matt
 
Not much uses the dual processors, however once all the apps are Mac OSX native, they will have to. There are two questions ehre: one is, how much power do you need, and the other is, what kind of expandability do you need.

The power issue is not a big one, considering that you are mostly using just a sampler. Either computer should be able to handle that. When you start to get into more softsynths and stuff, you will want more power than the eMac though.

The expandability issue is huge, however. The only way you can add an audio interface to the eMac is by Firewire, and Firewire presents certain bandwith limitations that make it less than ideal for th application. So then the G4 dual 867 starts to look like a better deal, because those PCI slots will give you a lot more power and flexibility when itcomes to choosing an audio interface.

Also, go for the CDRW/DVD combo drive and skip the superdrive. It's not worth the premium they are charging for it. DVD-R/DVD-RW and all the other writable DVD formats are in their infancy right now, and it's not going to be very long (maybe 1-2 years) before the writers are in the $100-$150 range. And you'll be able to buy an external writer that will work with your Mac. Already, when new DVD writers come out, they're now at 300, and last year they were coming out at $500.

One note of frustration that is commonly heard about the new G4 duals, especially for audio people... they have the nickname "WindTunnel" becasue their fans are extremely noisy. This can be helped by moving the computer out of the recording area, but that might be a concern for you to think about in regards to your recording enviroment.
 
thanks!

charger,
so you are saying that if a program is for OS X than it by nature takes advantage of the dual processors? Because Emagic Logic Audio has a new version for X. I just wasn't sure if that meant that it would use both processors.

Well, I use software synths now as well as other VST virtual instruments, I just meant that the EXS24 is the most memory-hungry thing I use now. Of course I can run fairly simple operations now with what I have, but it is the automation of five-and-up EXS24 instances being played in real time with plugin effects to boot that lock up my current computer. It would be safe to say that I would like to have unlimited access to more and more Audio Objects simultaneously to allow natural expansion of my ideas without "The Mac AV was unable to process all required data in time due to insufficient memory" or messages of the like. I am so tired of slimming back plugins and LFO's just so I can play back what I have!

I can only add an audio interface to the eMac via firewire? Right now I am using Aardvark's USB3 via a USB port for my audio interface (I currently work with audio objects and instruments for the most part). But than I figure that most audio interfaces are via sound card so I guess there has to be an advantage to that medium.

Hmmm I found what you said about the DVD authoring very interesting and helpful. There is an $800 difference between the 867 and the 1GHz Duals. I am not sure if you are familiar with all of the specs of both models, but how much of that $800 is for the Superdrive since DVD authoring is a more mainstream feature these days? What you said made me decide that having that is absolutely not a priority, but I wonder how much I would be missing with a lesser cache and bus speed not to mention the 133Mhz to be exact. And of course, are those beefier specs aside from DVD-R on the 1Ghz Dual really worth that extra cash?

Yikes! WindTunnel?? lol. Hmm, I'm gonna have to drop by my local apple store and take a test listen during some media processing. Thanks a lot for the info-wealthy reply charger! Very, very appreciated! =)
 
The difference between the 867 dual and 1 gig dual is significant, particularly the increase in bus speed and the use of 333 DDRAM instead of 266. That alone will have more of an effe3ct than the increase in processor speed. Would I pay 800 for it? Probably not. If all you are doing is computer music, with only a couple ins and outs, this is already a pretty killer processor. You should be able to get a lot more plugins and synths and samplers with even a single 867, compared to the iMac DV, and with the other architectural increases that are incorporated, this machine will work like 4 or 5 of your iMacs.

As I understand it, applications that are fully OSX compatible are dual processor-compatible, since the OS is. I could be wrong, and I can find only sketchy information on the emagic web site. it might be a good idea to look at some Logic user groups. The other thing to remember is that everythign is overhauled in OSX Logic, and some things don't work yet... For example, Logic OSX will only support AudioUnits plugins, CoreAudio drivers, and CoreMIDI drivers. You should check to make sure that your hardware is compatible.

Yes, you can of course use a USB audio interface... But if you want more than a couple ins and outs, you'll want something else. If you're happy with what you've got, stick with it, but make sure it's supported before you upgrade Logic.
 
particularly the increase in bus speed and the use of 333 DDRAM instead of 266.
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I was under the impression that, due to a defficiency in Apple's mobos, that their DDRAM operates at SDRAM speeds, thereby negating any benefit of using 333 over 266 DDRAM.
 
I was under the impression that, due to a defficiency in Apple's mobos, that their DDRAM operates at SDRAM speeds, thereby negating any benefit of using 333 over 266 DDRAM.
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That wouldn't surprise me at all. The first time they jump on the bandwagon with all these new technologies all at once, so they were bound to screw it up.

Of course, if you look at the Apple website, they make damn sure you know it runs Photoshop really really fast. Anyone else getting tired of Apple benchmarking with only Photoshop?
 
Yes I mainly am doing the computer-aided music thing, but since the creative mind doesn't sleep I'd love the sky to be the limits as far as what my computer-canvas can offer.
This message board is great for assistance!
Thanks, I will have to look into what hardware will be compatible!
You mentioned bus speed among other major perks to having the Ghz Dual. Now If I were to go with the 867Mhz, would I be able to upgrade my tower's bus speed? What couldn't I do as far as upgrades with my 867 dual? I know that upgrading SDRAM is a snap but what about Mhz upgrades or other such speeds? I have never had my own tower before and am a novice when it comes to the mechanics of computer upgrades.

I am definitely tired of Apple always citing Photoshop. Get ready for apple to also use Logic Audio since they acquired Emagic. Wow, that was great news for me being an avid Apple and Logic user!
 
woah! what is up with those results? Who can defend the Mac??
 
I don't know why you're surprised. PCs are really fast for the price. In fact, I can almost guarantee you will get more audio plugins, synths and tracks from a comparably-priced PC over a Mac. This is a trend that has been documented for about the past year and a half, and the gap is only getting wider. Personally, I think it's good if Apple starts to feel a little heat on this. It took them way too long to increase their bus speeds, way too long to support DDRAM, etc. All the innovation on the performance side happens in the PC world now.

That's why I use both. It's always better just to look at them as different tools instead of one as "better" than the other. Both platforms have advantages and disadvantages.
 
History

I think that Mac is still the go to platform for professionals in audio due to history and inovation.

Apple have always been the company that INVENTS technology and then looses to the cheaper priced PC knock offs. The Institute for Electronics and Electrical Engineers (IEEE) developed IEEE1394 Firewire for Apple. Universal Serial Bus (USB) is also an Apple baby. Do you guys remember the whole Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates argument about who really invented the idea of a windows type opperating system???

Apple have problems. MANY BIG problems. However, most of them are internal company problems. Their marketing department has to be the biggest collection of IDIOTS to ever discrace business. They have had so many chances to be the best in the world through their technological advances... but their marketing dept has dropped the ball each time.

And now, all they do is take normal electronics and put them in supper expensive packages. They seem to be addicted to sleak styled packaging. The Power Macs, iMacs, Jesus do you all remember those cubes??? They have these super sexy flat screen plastic displays that costs a king's ransom.

I am myself a Mac user. I started out on PC and switched to Mac for all of the only real reason. "The pros use them!"

I don't regret it. They cost a lot, but you can finance one and you won't feel the impact on your wallet so much. I do have to admit that I feel more like a pro since I bought a Mac. But that is only a personal thing. Some people might feel like a dunse having spent so much money just to have a cool looking machine.

Mac vs, PC.... who really gives a fuck?!?!?! Buy what makes you FEEL the best and what will be as transparent as possible for you to make music and not fuck around taking things apart and tweeking this and that.

The result is what matters!
 
Re: History

I think that Mac is still the go to platform for professionals in audio due to history and inovation.
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A company's past does not dictate its future. Case and point - IBM

Universal Serial Bus (USB) is also an Apple baby. Do you guys remember the whole Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates argument about who really invented the idea of a windows type opperating system???
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I would like to see proof - last time I checked Intel came up with USB. Oh, and BTW neither Bill or Steve invented the GUI - Xerox did at PARC.

I am myself a Mac user. I started out on PC and switched to Mac for all of the only real reason. "The pros use them!"
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That is pretty shallow. Do you also buy a certain keyboard because your favorite artist uses it? Do you buy a Buick Rendez Vous because you like golf and Tiger Woods is in their commercial?

Mac vs, PC.... who really gives a fuck?!?!?! Buy what makes you FEEL the best and what will be as transparent as possible for you to make music and not fuck around taking things apart and tweeking this and that.

The result is what matters!
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Thats the only valid point you made in this entire post...
 
Compare a dual to a dual: http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=50000333

The use of apple in "the industry" is just inertia, like everything else. At the office they kicked out a pdp11 recently. Why only now? because it did the job, and all investment was payed off so it was a cheap machine. Training people cost more than a mac. So they continue to buy expensive antiques because the end balance is cheaper. It's all about money! We over here have no client to bill, mostly we are our own clients, so our time is valuable.

Firewire as indeed an apple idea, that's why it takes so long to take off. That's why usb was able to overtake it. They have no feeling for standards.

The result matters: agreed, that's why I use a totally overspecced dual cpu pc, so I don't need to tweek and try to get the last out of it. Install and be damned.

Now Matt, if you are a logic user and have no inclination to change your software, it is simple: buy the largest mac you can afford.
 
A company's past does not dictate its future. Case and point - IBM
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Amiga is another. It outclassed Both Apple and PCs. Amiga 500 had Rock solid performance. It had 4096 colors when the PC had a maximum of 8 and the Mac was black and white. Bad Marketing!
 
I use both platforms.

PC's, for the most part, easily spank the Mac in performance.

So why do I use Macs also?
It's just more fun to use :)

I'm just as comfortable using a PC as a Mac. But I have more fun on my Mac. I spend alot of time on a computer, so the little things count with me.
Music is fun, computing is fun.
 
Havoc,
Here is the thing, money is not an issue; but it is. Understand now? Haha, what I mean is I cannot afford the best Dual G4 (about $3,300) because that is alot of money. Even the second best is pretty pricey. I want the best bang for my buck; something that will continue to be my best choice as time goes on without it becoming too obsolete as far as technology v.s. money-spent. When I say that money is not an issue what I mean is that I am thinking about what each computer has to offer for the specific needs of a desktop recorder. If one computer is a little bit more than I would like to spend or even have, but is what is most ideal for letting me carry through my projects to completion (without having to search for a new, more powerful computer later in order to finish them), than I would rather save up some more cash for that more expensive one.

charger,
You mentioned bus speed among other major perks to having the Ghz Dual. Now If I were to go with the 867Mhz, would I be able to upgrade my tower's bus speed? What couldn't I do as far as upgrades with my 867 dual? I know that upgrading SDRAM is a snap but what about Mhz upgrades or other such speeds? I have never had my own tower before and am a novice when it comes to the mechanics of computer upgrades.
 
Boy some people get NASTY when that tired old Apple vs. Mac shit comes up!

brzilian...

You sound as if you take this shit really personally. I didn't insult your mother or anything. In fact, I don't remember ever even insulting a platform.

As for your statement: "A company's past does not dictate its future. Case and point - IBM "...

It is simply not true. A company's past can greatly effect it's future. Not all the time of course. But since I think EVERYONE in the world would have to agree hands down that PCs perform more MIPS (Millions of instructions per second) and basically wipe the floor with Macs on a performance level... the ONLY reason why Mac is still around in a professional enfironment is because of it's history. As Shagfu said... Mac's are fun! And they ARE fun. But the pros still use them, because... well because they just always have.

I bought one to feel like I am using professional equipment. Of course you might think that is shallow. I promise it won't keep me up nights if you think that. And of course people buy keyboards, or instruments, or sample CDs, or guitars because their heros have that model or make. Creating music is a psychoacoustic thing to do anyway. If it makes me FEEL more powerful and solid... then leave that alone. At the end of the day I know that the song that I wrote, performed, recorded, mixed, mastered and burned is infinitly more important than the equipment I used to do all that on.

(actually I have never been arrogant enough to assume that I could master one of my own CDs)

I did goof up about the USB thing. Apple didn't do that one.

I thought I was quite clear in my original post. Apple is an inferior tool from a raw performance perspecitve. The difference lies in the psychology of creating music. If you feel more "professional" using a bad ass PC that you spec'ed yourself, bought every part and assembled it by the sweat of your brow, knowing each and every nook and cranny of the machine you use.... Then go for it! I know that some Mac users look down their nose at PC users like they are playing in little league while "us Mac users are making serious music." I am not that way at all... that is why I took offense by your harshness.

So you should be careful who you call shallow... especially when you don't even know me.
 
Matt: I get your point very well. The pc I use is not what I want, it is the second on the list. Heck, I cannot even afford the motherboard of my wishlist.

You talk about getting projects to completion. So it means you are locked into the soft you have now. It also means that going to a different platform will hurt. So one thing you have to do is to make sure you can afford the switch from mac to pc. Not the money, but investment in technology and time. Once that is behind you, you can start about thinking on how to spend your budget.

Now a pc is generally cheaper than a mac, so dumping it earlier is less an issue. If you go for the mac, you have to plan a little ahead. I'm not following mac much, but in the pc world, upgrading the cpu is easy. But this is something that seems less obvious in the mac world. Some things like bus speed are a different issue because they do not only depend on the cpu.
 
havoc,
locked into the soft I have now? You mean logic SOFTware? If that is what you mean, yes, Logic is the main DAW app that I focus around as far as my tools go. And I am fairly certain I will not be switching to PC.

Does anyone know or have reason to suspect that Apple will lower prices on their Dual G4's or up the speed of them at the upcoming MacWorld Expo (MWSF) in San Francisco? I do not know much about what is expected from these Mac expos.
 
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