Who Co-writes?

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Xdrummer

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I normally enjoy co-writing - since I've found some of the better writen material I've been involved with was the end result of a collaboration (two heads are better than one, etc.). In addition, I find that since I don't gig as often and stay hunkered in my studio - I do miss the interaction with our musicians.

I've found the process is normally more efficient if one writer already had a song started and needs help developing the story etc. - rather than two people strating with a blank page.

So when the opportunity arises, I do reach out when I find writers who are looking to co-write. However, I find too often the other writer is so set in their way or so locked into what they've written that they simply are not willing to change anything. If often seems - alol they really want is to use my studio to demo "their songs" (rather than co-writing)

I feel the true craft of song writing occurs during the "re-write" process - but too often I find writers that think whatever words that first create - that whould be the final word.
So - if anyone co-writes ....... how do you achieve middle ground and/or compromise.
 
I do every now and then, mainly for other people's stuff...I think I'm slightly disinclined towards it because the first guy I ever co-wrote with (or TRIED to...lol) was kinda dumb. I actually felt like he dragged me down skill-wise to even lower than what I normally do by myself, which is like the total opposite of what a good co-writing session should do! lol :D

I think you have to find the middle ground with the other person, obviously...but it's much easier to find someone already inclined to compromise on material than to try and convince someone who is stingy to compromise on their baby. Saves a lot of stress :)
 
I NEVER EVER write with someone else. I'm never being in a band again. The last band I was in was pretty good though. I hate conflicting ideas. Just hate 'em.
 
I think co writing can be a very fruitful pursuit for the following reasons, one person might look at what the other has written and have ideas which are generated by the contribution of the other person. It's very easy to get bogged down with a set of lyrics by being to close to them which is also where the second person's more distanced perspective can allow a free'er interaction with the material. Finding middle ground is likely dependent on openness on both parts to appreciate and fully try to understand how each contribution can be woven into a single piece by virtue of a meeting of perspectives. Of course selfishness has to take a back seat along with ego. I guess being an old fart has along the way taught me to at least consider what others have to contribute and see how that contribution works in reality as I'm probably not the only person to have initially had a negative response to something, only to find it grew on me once I gave it a chance to fly.

The ability to take criticism on the chin and and be open to the idea that someone else may have something superior to offer also helps. I've offered thoughts on many occasions in respect of different aspects of creative writing and been surprised by that variety of reactions which ranged from outrage to complete appreciation. It's often the case that lyrics are personal and are like personal treasure that's taken a degree of openness to put on a public platform, hence the rejection of some parts by another can stir up differing reactions. Quite comical really when the author initially asked for honest feedback and then gets peeved by what others have offered in response. All good fun.

regards

Tim
 
I've co-written since 1976.
Initially because I only played bass & needed someone who could come up with chords & melody.
After I'd learnt a few chords I still needed melody & less staid chord progressions.
om the mid 80's it was because I played in a band with someone with similar ideas with very different tastes - that made for points of commonality & point of departure - we still write together.
I wrote on my own for a bit - in the early 2000's. I did the backing & lyrics but still needed melody help so started co-writing again with a female for a change - there were some pretty good results.
Recently I've been collaborating/co-writing with three excellent musicians, (through the MP3 Mixing Clinic), who bring arrangements, melody, talent & dynamics to the party.
I've also resumed writing with my original co-writer from the 70's after a gap of 30+ years. That's pretty far out as we are now on opposite sides of the planet but we've completed demos for 2 songs and have a couple more in the frying pan.
How I co-write was/is different for each of the collaborations. Originally I just did lyrics. later I did lyrics & worked on the chords with the partner. later still The writing partner and I jammed our musical ideas into a song and then traded ideas/lines or verses etc in the lyric. that developed to the stage where we'd edit eachother's lyriocs and add the occasional lines etc. that partnership is still running though it's been reduced to me doinf the backing & lyrics while the otehr does the melody - maily due to family commitments on the partners part.
With the revisited 70's partnership it's lyrics and bass by me with Eric doing the guitars & melody.
The collaboration from this site has me sketching out a bare bones idea & lyrics with the others contributing what they care to &/or what the track needs.
I've done a few co-writes apart from the above - as a lyricist - I write from ideas put forward & then allow the co-writer/performer to edit/alter to suit the needs of the song/delivery. I don't have any ego issues with that - it's just nice to be invited to work with someone.
Beyond the need for someone to write melodies for my stuff I REALLY enjoy co-writing & the collaborative process.
 
I used to "re-write" in a sense, with a friend of mine. . . He was the type of guy who was open to new ideas. . . Never really married to any song's structure. . . Lyrically, I admired his work, but I would often record a completely different arrangement and surprise him with it. . . A rock shuffle compared to his piano ballad, for example. . . He always seemed to get a kick out of hearing what I had done to his songs. . . We never actually worked on any songs together, but I hoped that hearing his songs from a new perspective helped his creativity, not that he needed me to do that- - - He was quite gifted with good ideas. . .
I know that it helped me to not be so determined to stick with my own songs and arrangements that I had created. . . Sometimes you have to get a new perspective and fresh ideas. . . Especially when you think you have a song, but it just isn't coming together, sometimes a new arrangement is the answer. . .
 
Thanks for the replys. As a writer, I try to be open to suggestions that can improve what I've written. After writing over 200 songs (most of which are crap) - I've become humble and experienced enough to recognize a better idea - in essence, I'm getting better at knowing when something is crap and when it isn't. I always re-write and normally always can find better phrases, etc.

I find that the people who perhaps have not written long enough are the ones most subseptible to taking offense - and the ones who are more insistant on staying with whatever they've written with no interest in re-write, etc.

Recently I offered some suggestions to a writer to improve the continuity of his story line and allow for a slight change to create a bridge (the changes were very minor and in no way compromised the original story line). He was resistant to any changes and suggested to me - he did not want to "compromise the purity of the process"

I in turn suggested that as a writer, I was much more concerned with the "integrity of the craft". Candidly, I don't think he understood the distinction of the two.
 
I've never tried co-writing. I can imagine that the first posters idea, about two heads are better than one is definitely true. Because look at all the songs from the beatles or Jay Z that were cowritten.

Pretty much, any album that you look at, that is considered classic, has a lot of cowrittens.
 
The greatest successes were the combined efforts of many people, whether in movies, sports, science, music, whatever. . . I think it's important for a project to have a director with a certain focus and vision, but I think it would be a little foolish to reject ideas just to maintain "purity". . .

In songwriting, I suppose it's possible to write a great song on your own, but I've found that I can write GOOD songs. . . My GREAT songs are always the effort of several people, and/or my willingness to listen to constructive criticism. . .

But some people are into this for their own enjoyment, and really only need, or want, to do what they enjoy doing, in the sense that they are not seeking to write hits, or trying to write "the great song". . . They just enjoy the creativity and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. . . I myself decided to try to make every song great, with re-writes and criticism, and quickly trash the ones that weren't working. . . I don't see a point in writing and recording songs that aren't very good, but I've been writing songs for a very long time, so maybe that's why. . .
 
AtoDeficient said:
some people are into this for their own enjoyment, and really only need, or want, to do what they enjoy doing, in the sense that they are not seeking to write hits, or trying to write "the great song". . . They just enjoy the creativity and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that

I think this statement sums up what I've encountered many times - and likely the source of frustration that prompted me to start this thread.

Since. I've written for a long time, have had some songs published and placed and do receive annual checks from BMI - I approach writing and recording more as a "professional" than a "hobbiest" - (certainly the royalties aren't enough to pay the mortgage - but they do make me want to write well enough to earn more royaties).

I have spent time to learn the craft - and in my small part of the world other writers sometimes seek me out to help write, arrange, record, etc. .......... but too often, they will not or can not do what it takes to make each phrase, each word the best it can be ........ which then makes me feel I'm wasting my time and energy.

But the writer who suggested that making changes (a re-write) compromised the "purity"
simply took me over the edge.

I guess I have to either find a different level of writers to work with, learn to adjust my expectation ........... or avoid co-writing.
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Co writing works both ways. It's interesting that someone mentioned the Beatles as an example of the great co writing principle. Some of their best songs were written by George Harrison who had very little help from the others. And later on John Lennon felt some of his great songs suffered as a result of Paul McCartney's input and was almost rabid from the White album onwards about no collaboration.
On the other hand, the likes of Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Gil Scott Heron and Bob Marley wrote great songs on their own.
But the Bob Marley example leads me to thinking something that I've pondered on for many a year and that is that songwriting is somewhat overrated. After Marley died, the bass player of the Wailers, Family man Barratt, claimed damages for unpaid royalties, saying that he was the music arranger and director of the band. Now, that may just have been bravado on his part, but when you hear some of the posthumous recordings of Marley's songs where it's just him singing with an acoustic chopping a reggae 'chik, chik, chikka, chikka', you kind of wonder. Many of the songs that went on to be well known and on his Island albums were written years before and recorded in primitive form. It's hard to tell some of them apart from each other. The adding of bass and drums, foundational in reggae, take those songs into a totally different realm. Bands/session musicians play a more important role in the final form of a song than they are given credit for.
From the moment one or more people have an idea for a song, right through to when it's on a record/CD/MP3 on your personal player, it's a process that involves a team of people at different points, strengths and levels, fulfilling different functions.
In a way, many home recorders are unique in this regard because so many of the team players are cut out of the process.
 
Xdrummer said:
I guess I have to either find a different level of writers to work with, learn to adjust my expectation ........... or avoid co-writing.
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Find different level of writers to work with. Don't adjust your expectations. You are simply at a different point in the development of your music than the people you have met thus far.
 
Marley didn't write the little tags either.
THAT lick from I Shot the Sherriff is an incredible hook - the song is great but that hook grabs & holds which then allows the song to permeate.
Some terrific songs are just that because of the arrangement. Never more so than in the Disco era. It was the disco delimma: chuck together some catch phrases and let the disc go forever.
xrummer et al - if you come across the sort of people who rave on about compromise you've found, in them, people who aren't co-writers. Done!
Talk of the muse & not tempting fate are rarely raised in terms of continuing to write/rework/develop/revise the song.
There are a lucky few who can get a GREAT song down in a sitting & not revisit it. I suspect that, given structuring, tracking, retracking are in many ways revisions, that people who claim to have done so are disingenuous.
When it comes to lyrics - time, space & revision often make the content clearer.
I frequqntly refer to notes, snippets & verses I wrote as far back as the early 70's. What were, then, unformed brain snaps can become strong, powerful or emotive lyrics with some work. I have found that I can, on accasion, write a killer line. It's when I come back to the verse and find that it's 1 killer & lots of filler that I know I need to revise.
 
I don't know.... Finding the right cowriter is kind of like finding the right spouse. I've tried co-writing in the past and didn't like the results too much. On the other hand, I've been in songwriting seminars that extol the benefits of cowriting. I know cowriting can take my songs to the next level; I just haven't found THAT person who can help me get there.
 
Chili said:
I don't know.... Finding the right cowriter is kind of like finding the right spouse. .
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I'll say. . .

I find writing alone, while seeking criticism and advice from respected peers, without actually co-writing is what works for me. . . Of course, I'm divorced, so take that for what it's worth. . . ;)
 
I'm enjoying many of the comments in this thread!

The value of song arrangements has long been something I've debated in the deep, darkness of my mind. Being a true disciple of the great writers from the days of "tin pan alley", Brill building, etc. - I am a firm believer that a good song should be built on clever lyrics that tell a relatable story and a memorable, easy to sing melody.

However, there are many very good songs that have less than inspired lyrics and very limited melodies - but the groove and/or arrangement makes the song what it is.

Often, the producer and the studio musicians are the people who build the arrangement and lay down the grooves. Now while many of these people are not household names (thus are not "recognized" for thier contributions) - they often are paid top dollar (double and triple scale) and/or generous back end points (whice can mean subtantial revenue) - so these people often do get their due, if not public recognition.

So, while I do agree that song arrangements can be a significant part of a good/great recorded song - I don't know if I can fully support the suggestion that songwriting is over rated. A well crafted song is and always will be a thing of beauty.
 
I find many comments here interesting. Co-writing CAN take your songs to the next level. But, it could also diminish them.

I find my favorite artist (recently quit the band he was in) writes better material than the band! But that's personal opinion. And he is also a professional who has been playin for over 25 years, so I have take that into account too...
 
Xdrummer said:
So, while I do agree that song arrangements can be a significant part of a good/great recorded song - I don't know if I can fully support the suggestion that songwriting is over rated.
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When I've said in the past that songwriting is overrated, I guess I'm being a little tongue in cheek but it also points very much to the reality that a written song is often very different from a recorded song. My comment about songwriting is also a recognition that this is an issue very much of the recording age.
Back in the 'classical' sort of period, the composer had all the elements down and there was no room for the orchestra to change, alter, improve or worsen the piece. It was pretty much like that in the early days of recording but the onset of multitracking took songwriting to a completely different place where songwriting and arrangement are so much more closely aligned.
But not all the time. It really depends on the piece. And the genre. Some forms of music are pretty set, some allow for much alteration by the players. There are countless songs in which a particular instrument part or harmony was not written in the original and essential writing of the piece but when recorded was worked out and to the listener is an indispensible part of the song. As one of thousands of examples, I can't imagine "Bohemian Rhapsody" without the two Brian May guitar solos. They melodically and riff-nasciously flow in such a way that if you were humming the whole piece, they are a part that can't be gotten away from. But they weren't part of the original writing.
Xdrummer said:
A well crafted song is and always will be a thing of beauty.
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Oh, I fully agree with this. There are just so many different types of songs and they come to their final form in a number of different ways.
 
Chili said:
I don't know.... Finding the right cowriter is kind of like finding the right spouse.

On the other hand, I've been in songwriting seminars that extol the benefits of cowriting.

I know cowriting can take my songs to the next level; I just haven't found THAT person who can help me get there.
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CrowsofFritz said:
Co-writing CAN take your songs to the next level. But, it could also diminish them.
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I think that co-writing works well for those whom it works well. And there are zillions for whom it works well. I don't feel
that it's a given that it will work well though. Like pretty much most things music recording related, there are so many variables and very few straightforward absolutes.
I've done alot of co writing and alot of writing on my own. Alot of the co writing has been birthed in jam sessions where, in a way, the purest kind of fusion of minds and spirits takes place. That doesn't mean what comes forth is better or superior. It's just another way of 'writing'. Also, sometimes, friends have written words and/or melodies to which I've put the music. I remember coming home from work one day and finding that my friend had sung a couple of songs over my answering machine and because he played drums and not a melody instrument, asked me if I'd knock out some music for them. I was just learning guitar at that point and it was hard work, especially with winding that stupid answering machine backwards and forwards for hours but I persevered and 21 years on, I'm still proud of both efforts.
Or sometimes, someone has played me a song they've written and straightaway, I can hear parts and I'll suggest them and they've been accepted. Another friend had just come back from holiday in Switzerland and she said she'd written this song in French. She sang it to me and I went straight to a C chord and started following and rightly guessing the chords, which I'm usually rubbish at. But it happened that time and as another friend that used to sing with us was there, I said, let's just record it here and now. So we did and right on the spot, I did the intro then her verses and chorus and did a link between chorus and next verse. We did it in one take, her singing, me playing. Our other friend on the spot worked out a harmony and we recorded that. Over the next few weeks, I wrote an accordion part {she played accordion and it sounded so French to me} and a violin part for another friend . I added my own esoteric harmony and a piano bong in the runout. I did most of the work on it but I never took a credit for it. Mind you, I tend to give a writing credit to whoever was playing in a jam when a piece or part of a piece came up, even though I'll take it away and do all the work and often they'll have forgotten the piece even existed.
 
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