White noise help

joehempel

New member
I'm recording a classical guitar using a Samson C02 Pencil Mic, using the built in preamp and recording to a Zoom R16. Mastering with iZotop Ozone 4 and Sony Soundforge 10

My problem is I can put the mic 2 inches away or 2 feet away, and I still get very low volume input from the guitar (tried with multiple mics)

I have to turn the gain up and the fader up, and due to that....I'm getting alot of white noise.

I'm recording in a rather large room so that's not helping things, so I'm not sure what my options are.

The audio is going to be on a compilation CD if I can get it done right, but at this point it doesn't seem like it.

I've spent all I can as far as money goes. I'm at a loss, and am pretty depressed at this point...I can't seem to find an answer anywhere.

Any help would be great!!

Thanks!
 
Are you using a laptop? Or a desktop.

I had major friggin whitenoise issue with my laptop. When i unplugged it from the wall and let it run off battery power white noise was gone.

But i was limited to how long i could go between charges...

?
 
Big room in and of itself is not, necessarily, a bad thing. Until rooms exceed 110 ft. per side (including height), or are large enough to generate their own wind and weather, large rooms, other things being equal, tend to be more congenial spaces in which to record then tiny rooms

But it is doubtful that size of room is a primary issue here. Have you tried recording with the R16 using batteries? Is there any difference? Have tried recording with R16 internal mic? What are the differences there? If possible tried to borrow an different mic. If you have acquaintance with different mic and even a very cheap mic pre try that and see if there is a difference.

Are there any variations on wireless communication devices in proximity of your recording set up (cell phones, wireless hand sets for land lines etc.)? Neon lights would not be at top of my list as primary culprits but have been known to cause problems. As can dimmer switches for lights and fans.

If there is a universal 'usual suspect' . .. poor grounds in the mains circuit would tend to be it. This rears its head with ground loop issues which your described set up would seem to preclude. But poorly grounded circuits can be host to a hoard of problems. I use a fair amount of Samnson/Zoom gear so I'm not attempting to trash it or your choice to use it when I say that it is built to price. Wall Wart switched power supplies are notorious for introducing noise into systems. If you already have mains ground issues, electrical devices introducing noise into the system (dimmer switches on lights and fans for example, HVAC devices not isolated from rest of household circuits, etc.) then a poor power supply on the R16 can compound all those issues

After isolating or removing items that can introduce noise into the recording chain (wireless, dimmer switches, neon, etc.) you still have to isolate and test: mains power, R16 power, R16 self noise, R16 mic pres, microphone (and C02 is not a quiet mic under best of circumstances, the further you move from source the more apparent its self noise will be), and all the interconnects (in addition to fact that poorly shielded cables (broken or cold soldered connections) can function as antennas for all sorts of unwanted artifacts there are cables with different XLR configurations, using a non standard with phantom power can cause problems).

One of the nice things about digital recording is that you can record at low volume and boost gain as needed during editing phase. While not a substitute for diagnosing (and if possible fixing) the issue, recording at a lower volume and applying some gentle noise reduction as a first step during editing can, at times, produce acceptable results.

in any case good luck
 
Thanks alot for responding.

Basically here is what I've tried in the past.

3 different microphones (2 samson, 1 cardinal), a different mixer (I was getting a ground hum in that, turned out to be the mixer), the internal mics on the zoom give kind of a "tinny" feel to it. I really like the sound being recorded by the Zoom until I have to get it to a level that is acceptable for an Audio CD without having to jack up the car radio to 862 in the volume number :)

I do not have a pre-amp, just what's built in.

Here is the best I've gotten so far. It's been normalized, and has a "touch" of noise reduction, and I did a compression with Audacity to try and increase the perceived volume.

http://www.box.net/shared/9ixca674rs

If there is anyway you have time to listen that would be great!
 
I can't listen to your track at the moment to hear the exact nature of the noise unfortunately, but recording soft sources like acoustic guitars is notoriously difficult, and my suspicion is that you're being adversely affected by the quality of your equipment, I'm afraid.

As I record a lot of steel string acoustic / fingerstyle, I'm familiar with the challenges that you face in attempting to get a good signal and low noise. It's not easy, and I find myself having to play louder than I would prefer to get a result I'm happy with.

I'm not a purist and adopt a "whatever works" approach and have developed my recorded sound over the years to use various "tricks" to achieve a decent recorded sound including boosting the overall volume using amplification (definitely not a purist thing to do), running low pass filters over quieter bits, using multiple microphones, some really close to the guitar, double tracking, recording just white noise and inverting the phase etc.

Using these various means I manage to "get away with it". There's no single bullet and it's taken me years to find something that worked. Keep at it and try everything. The answer's out there somewhere.

I'm not a fan of Audacity's noise reduction either. Good luck. :)
 
Here is the best I've gotten so far. It's been normalized, and has a "touch" of noise reduction, and I did a compression with Audacity to try and increase the perceived volume.

Compression can actually make it noisier, unfortunatley.

I hear the "white noise", but I doubt you will get rid of it until you upgrade to cleaner equipment (Pre-amp, Mic, recorder, specifically)
 
Not in location where I can listen to sample but will try to review it later this evening (or manana)

Prior to that without simply outlining the type of trouble shooting tree I'd pursue (partially because while some principles are consistent the specific steps are dependent on specific location and gear) I was trying to suggest some approaches that might be useful

All the gear in a recording chain interact (any single variable is dependent in some slight degree with every other variable) . . . this is one reason why 'best Mic (or fill in the blank 'gear')' (even if delimited by budget, and even 'budget' is multi variant, always Time Vs $) questions are, generally impossible to answer (when I started even though he knew I was pursuing a 'project studio' (at a time when that phrase, perhaps even concept, had yet to be invented) my tech/gear guru insisted that my minimum mic choice, for recording acoustic guitar was/were 2 $2k (ea.) custom built SDCs (nor did he have financial incentive for his recommendation) . . . he was categorically convinced that this was the 'best' entry level 'bang for buck' of which he was aware. While I now have some custom built mics I regularly use some off the rack AT 4051s, not offering that as best bang for buck but I did not pay anywhere near $2k for a pair of those, let alone the $4k my guru was recommending.

1. question (recording with batts rather then mains) was a '20 questions' attempt to limit some variables, divide them into workable classes. If you have the same artifact with batteries as mains. that does not, necessarily, entirely remove mains issues but does suggest that you can back burner that particular snake pit. If signal chain is mic=>R16 mic pre=>SD card and you are using a well constructed XLR cable (that is not wired in reverse to present problems with both phantom and level) then mains ground issues are probably not the primary cause

2 if you record with batts via on board mic, fail to get the objectionable noise artifact, that suggests the issues is Mic, pre amp, cable (in that level of probability, based on my experience)

the above suggestions are based on info, from you, that artifact remained consistent whether the mic was positioned, on axis in the near field (depending to an extent on guitar but inside of 18 in.) . For artifact to remain consistent no matter distance from source suggests that ambient noise is not the primary culprit. But self noise on C02's I've auditioned is high enough to suggest that it is primarily near field mic, particularly on naturally quiet sources. Samson is typically fairly circumspect about providing thorough technical specifications . . . but I'd be very surprised if on board pre (which I would expect to be a single opamp with 'stereo' input) were not fairly low gain . . . but again moving C02 into near field, spending some time positioning source in room (to reduce ambient artifacts) spending some time positioning mic to improve signal to noise, keeping gain low on recorder, applying some gentle NR and then boosting gain in a edit phase can produce workable results . . . even with a fairly low noise threshold on both mic and pre.

If you are in an urban area take R16 to retail out let and audition several of their mics, several of their mic pres with you mics, with their mics . . .

not familiar with Cardinal (EV built like Shure green bullet?) but if Samson is same or similar to the one in producing problem this will not necessarily exclude the mic as primary cause and if it is the EV I would anticipate that to also not be a particularly 'quiet' mic

compression in and of itself will not, necessarily, help you with your stated issue (Dolby and dBX NR schemes employed 'companding') . . . compression will reduce 'loud' parts if you then use make up gain you are raising the noise floor at expense of dynamics . . . that is if you compress prior to dealing with noise the entire piece either gets 'quieter' (compressing the louder parts) or with make up gain you have just turned up the noise . . . and in fact reduced S/N ratio because noise is now 'louder' (then it was pre compressed) in relation to 'not noise' . . . does not mean compression can't be helpful . . . but it never quite does exactly what you'd want . . . but long attack 33ms+, low threshold -20dB relatively mild ratio (you can use a 20:1 but you will start introducing other artifacts, as with most audio processing 'less' retains more of the source . . . anyway start 2:1 increase ratio gradually until you can't tell any difference (between successive settings) and back it off a bit, and release time no longer then absolutely necessary to accomplish goal . . . start small 70ms and work your way up until either you start hearing artifacts you don't want or can't hear any difference between successive settings (and once again all the settings are inter connected . . . a 1ms attack will produce different results with 100ms release then 33ms attack . . . but the idea for using compression on something like an unwanted low level artifact is to pass as much 'not noise' signal as possible and then compress the 'noise' just enough to reduce awareness (without introducing compression artifacts) . . . and, as with all other audio processing, it's all compromise . . . a tradeoff . . . for example if you compress to reduce awareness of noise you will loose reverb tails . . . you can of course then add digital reverb to make for that lose . . . but with each edit you move further and further from the source . . . you can derive usable results but if transparent capture of source is the goal the less you have to fix I the mix the better

in any case ... typed this on a couple of passes so probably left something out that might be useful and included a bit of redundancy . . . but will try to listen later this evening or tomorrow and see if anything helpful jumps out (and it might not . . . out of the hundreds of possible combinations of variables when ever an accurate guess, from remote info, hits me over the head I'm always more surprised then the person asking the question)
 
Thanks guys! Everyone has been extremely helpful!!

I'll try batteries tomorrow. I'm thinking that the noise is now because I've got the gain on the mic turned up too loud (but I have to do that unfortunately), so I turned it up until I got that noise, then turned it down just a touch.

When mastering the track to the output of the R16 I push it to read consistently at -12db. I wonder if I just use the track and manipulate the mono signal, if that will produce better results.

I'm using compression to just gain loudness, I've got to turn my radio up to 30 to hear it well, while all the "studio" recordings are at 15 or so.

Plus for whatever reason....I CAN'T hear the noise in the car...so that's good I guess. We shall see. I've got a deadline to get this stuff done by Monday. Hopefully I find acceptable results. With everyones help, I think I just may!
 
Got a chance to listen to sample and while it can be difficult to tell for sure from a processed MP3 (while it might seem obvious just need to reiterate that for trying to trouble shoot the type of issue you raised with initial post a completely unprocessed, unedited raw 'wav' always tends to be more useful)

and what I hear is a noisy room, probably noisy mic, perhaps noisy pre. I'm not attempting to be excessively critical of the tools with which you have to work . . . those are the conditions audio recording has been dealing with from the very beginning and controling the issues is very much budget related

will attempt to post a couple of pics that illustrate (again taking into account that I'm working from a processed mp3) a bit of what I'm talking about. Two are plots of frequency over time with relative amplitude being suggested by color . . . warm colors (though green tends to be on beyond 0) suggesting higher amplitudes cooler colors lower. Two are amplitude over time just of the noise sample (for NR profile) @ beginning of the posted sample. One is quick contrasting 'test' from gear here.

The 'noise' is not just self noise. Lot of activity in what ever room you used to record. The more active transient even 'feels' like a reciprocating event . . . does not appear to show of periodically but door (even revolving door), some mechanical device starting or stopping, except that it doesn't repeat it almost 'felt' like a fan. Then there is a lot of general not quiet ambient stuff (smeared across the entire human audio spectrum), and finally even what seemed to be back ground conversation. How 'damaging' any of this is hard to tell from a processed sample. It shows up, in the sample around -50 dB . . . under relatively normal, background listening conditions for average US households it would be relatively inaudible. In studio through monitors set at levels I use for mixing (and I do not mix at particularly loud level) it was pretty obvious but not intrusive during the music. through same system but set for staring at the sky, drinking a cup of coffee contemplating the universe music in the background; level on even the noise sample alone was more or less inaudible (system level down somewhere around -24 dB).

the reasonably good news is that I don't think the primary noise source is bad grounds, bad power supply, ground loop, malfunctioning gear. Bad news is its the room, mic, mic-pre. Only things like the opening spike transient had regular, repeating, harmonics (starting way down @ 40 Hz). For a lot of electrical issues you will be able to identify a fundamental (usually not quite as obvious as the 60 cycle hum) with an identifiable harmonic sequence. That kind of thing is, by definition not 'noise' and certainly not white noise . . . but are unwanted artifacts . . . but what ever was in original I didn't see/hear electrically induced artifacts in the sample

In the frequency plot pictures the guitar transients will show as the yellow/red spikes, not all the stuff represented by the lavender 'dust' is unwanted noise (by any means) . . . much of it is simply the decay of the guitar note. Contrast between the first two pics is that first one is 'raw', second used 5 sec or so from sample prior to first note for a noise profile and then subtracted roughly 38% of that from the sample. there is no free lunch to NR, you will introduce artifacts by applying it . . . but at 38% (with other parameters set to control artifacts) I got a good compromise between getting rid of noise and not introducing anything objectionable. Pics 3 & 4 show about two seconds of the noise sample prior to NR and after applying NR @ 100%, respectively. Events like the initial transient are not particularly amenable to this sort of NR, and applying a profile with a lot that kind of spike will introduce artifacts in the content.

I have neither Samson C02 nor R16 but took another of the inexpensive Chinese SDCs (MXL I think), attached it to a Zoom H4, then at the commercial studio I use (chauvinism suggests, to me, that project studio is quieter then room OP used but point was not to compare his noise to my noise, and project studio remains a typical project studio), which is . . . well, commercially 'quiet' . . . what you're seeing, amplitude over time is suggestion of 'self noise' of that system (it is not a rigorous test for 'self noise' . . . and even with that mic, that mic pre, that A/D I think I should be able to do better . . . but this was purely down and dirty . . . set gain via headphones on the Zoom hand held and it seemed OK. Finger picked guitar signal peaked about -13 dB, system noise is stuff on left hand side. Quiet room, not particularly quiet mic positioned about 9 in from body of guitar. The variables are pretty consistent no matter what pieces comprise the system: room, mic, mic-pre, recorder, A/D, interconnects . . . you juggle the pieces to pursue the sound you want. For example, in the 'test', if I turned down gain on pre, would Noise profile for subsequent NR introduce fewer artifacts when I'd boosted final signal to point where I wanted it? There is no one size answer fits all.

Sort of obviously better rooms (with grounded power) make a huge difference (in the 'test' in the squiggle on the left there is nothing significant from the room . . . Wish I'd thought to use a decent mic through studio stock pre's into their A/D . . . I doubt (certainly not through any standard mic) we'd see a noise floor down at -96 dB, let alone the potential -108 . . . but I'd be surprised if it was significantly higher then -80 (kind of down where you'd get with NR in the nosier room.

I quite honestly don't understand what OP is trying to relate concerning the listening in the car. In my experience if you try to amplify a signal in a car to over come ambient noise you are going to be deep into system self noise . . . perhaps correlated to content but not dependent on it in any way . . . nor, as far as I know is there any standard calibration that even suggests what '80' means for any given car amplifier . . .

To reiterate, from the sample I hear a fairly noisy environment in which to record. Nothing that suggests any quick fix, or defective gear. Even at noise level in the room working with position of performer and mics to performer can help. Again if I remember correctly the C02 had a pretty severe cardioid pattern . . . almost hyper cardioid . . . which might help with 'noise' off axis but presents an area of extended sensitivity on axis but to the rear of the mic . . . and by nature of beast (design and how mics work) that stuff, in a generalized noisy environment is actually going to be tougher to tame then artifacts from using a less severe cardioid or even an omni capsule. Again all, every single one, strategies (cardioid mics designed to reject off axis material) to tame the 'unwanted' in audio work best on material that needs them the least . . . hyper-cardioid mics perform better in quiet rooms then in noisy ones, etc.
 

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So my problem seems to be fixed. Why I didn't think to do this before I don't know.

I'm an engineer at a TV station, so I took my audio, ran it through our audio board, that cleaned it up ENTIRELY!!!! The audio board is close to $20,000 audioboard, much better than my $400 recorder LOL.

Thanks everyone for your help!!!

Also, Waves Ultramax Limiter is the bomb!!!
 
yeah, amazing what one can fix by throwing money at a perceived problem

I'm also surprised that it is not, as a rule, 14 pages of rants concerning whether some cheap mic is better then some other cheap (or in a current rant some non specific not cheap mic) mic . . . 'rant' being one of my two conversational modes . . . that cause me to wonder why I try to participate in these type of forums

typically it is something innocuous that causes me to beat the head against the wall and wonder why in hell I bother to 'think' about individual queries

Oh, fucking well . ..
 
Thanks for all the help man, I appreciate it!

It's funny, I bought the hyper-cardioid because I thought that it would help in a noisy environment to just pick up what's in front....guess I was wrong by your statement.

I'm just glad I found a solution.

Here's that same file processed and mastered:

http://www.box.net/shared/bcbka53tpo

I must warn you though that it's LOUD, so please turn your volume down to start.

But I am quite happy with my new results!
 
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