Which would you use for where?

jeff5xo

jeff5xo

New member
Ok let me do a little set up for you. My band is getting ready to record our first CD in my studio. I went to GC last weekend and bought what I think is a pretty decent middle grade mic locker.

2 MC-012 Octavas
2 KSM 32 SL
2 MD-421's

I already had 2 GT-44's, 2 SM-57's and a Beta 52. I will be recording a rock steady hard hitting drummer. I will be recording him in a room that is less than perfect (low ceilings) but isn't terrible acoustically. The room has hardwood floors. The kit is a 4 piece DW and it sounds great. My drummer is anal about tuning the kit to the exact notes stamped on the shells. I have not heard the kit in the room yet only at our practice space, which is carpeted.

Now here's the question. I need a starting point with the mics. I've had good success with recording live drums in my studio using the "3 mic technique", but I want better than good results. So, help me out with this.

I bought the MD-421's for the toms. Obviously the Beta is for the bass drum. So do I use the Octava's for overheads and the KSM's for room sound. (this is only a 10'x10' room, should I even use room mics?) What should I put on the snare SM-57, or maybe a GT-44? Look I know the obvious answer is try it all out in different ways. I know that already, I just need a starting point. Me and this drummer are in 2 different bands and the time his kit will be Available for the studio is very limited. One other important factor I forgot to mention earlier is that I only have 8 available inputs, so I won't be able to mic under the snare, or on the beater side of the bass drum, or all the other cool stuff that can be done to make drums sound better. Can you guys give me a little help???? Thanks in advance. Chessrock, if you get to this thread, I know how knowledgable you are when it comes to mics, throw me a frickin' bone! LOL! :D
 
Kick - Beta 52
Snare - 57
Overheads - Octavia's


Here's what I would do:

Kick.
Take a chair and set it in front of the Kick drum, and cover bot the chair and the kick drum with a couple of heavy blankets. Put the Beta 52 under the blankets, and before you do any EQ'ing, move the mic around and try to get the best sound you can. This "tunnel" helps trap the kick drum's sound, so that you can get a cleaner kick sound.


Overheads:
Set the boomstands so that one is behind the drummer on the floor Tom side, 6 feet from the ground, and 6 feet from the center of the drum.
Set the other one in front of the kit on the hi-hat side, 6 feet from the ground, 6 feet from the center of the snare. Aim both of them at the exact same angle - either at the snare, or my favorite is straight down at the floor.

This is simply your starting point.
The best way to measure this is with a 6' length of nylon rope.


Have the drummer play as hard as he can, and set your levels so that you have at least -3db to -6db of headroom.

I would NOT compress the signal at all while recording.

Mic the toms if you like, but I prefer this type of setup - especially if the drummer is really good, and can tune really well, because it will give the drums some "room to breathe".





Tim
 
i'm going to "disagree" ;) with Tim here on the following and take a different approach.

i'd use your KSM32 as a mono overhead. then use your oktavas out in front of the kit as room mics. everything else, i'd do as Tim outlined.

honestly, i think you're going to have some issues getting a great sound out of a 10x10 room (with 8ft ceilings, i assume), and that would be more my concern than anything.


good luck!
wade
 
Tim, Wade, thanks for the responses. Tim what you described is basically the "3 mic technique" that I've used before with good results. Wade you're right about the room, it is my weakest link right now. However, like I said before, I have gotten "good" results out of it. I'm curious Wade, why put the KSM as an overhead in mono?? Are you thinking because the room is so small that stereo overheads wouldn't matter? Also Tim, you said use the 57 on the snare, I've heard the 57 gives an awful ugly off axis rejection. I'm going to have spill, I can't avoid it. Have you used 57 on snares before?? How'd it sound? I just want "good spill" :D Have either of you tried a GT-44 on snare? I'll try the 57 and see what happens. One more thing. Tim you said not to compress while recording. I ALWAYS compress drums SLIGHTLY when I record to get the hottest signal to tape. Waht is your reasoning for no compression?? I'm very curious. Thanks for the tips fellas!
 
well, first, a mono overhead tends to "solve" the problem of phase issues between stereo overheads. unless you're really careful, like tim noted, you'll get some comb filtering. nothing you can't fix with a short delay or by lining the tracks up in the computer.....but still....

secondly, i'm just a fan of mono overheads. especially on a smaller drumkit like a 4 piece--you don't have a lot of left-to-right movement around the toms in the first place, so having big sweeping panning just "doesn't make sense". think about it--if you were to listen to the kit from 6, 10 feet away, would you hear huge left to right (or right to left) rolls around the toms? no, instead you'd hear the kick, snare and rack tom all about in the middle, with the hat slightly to one side and the floor tom slightly to the other. having a huge stereo spread for a small kit sounds unnatural to me, plus it clutters up the mix. if i can have the drums centered in the middle in mono, i find that mixes tend to pull together more quickly and easily. YMMV. :D

for "stereo image", that's where the oktavas come in. put em 6ft out in front of the kit, about 4-6ft high, 4-6ft apart and season to taste. i usually start by aiming them at the drummer's throne--right at the middle of the kit. i usually almost always *crush* the room mics in the mix, too.

i'm not a fan of the 57 on snare--if the drummer wails on the hat, then you'll get some off-axis nastiness (IMO). try the GT on the snare--it might work better and it might not. if you get a decent drummer that has good technique, though, the 57 might give you outstanding results. maybe record both the 44 and 57, and if you have the ability to bus them to a single track on your mixing board, that might be an option if you run out of inputs to the recorder. just thoughts here.....

i almost always compress drums on the way in, usually just to level out the uneven playing of the drummer. there's nothing worse than getting good levels during soundcheck and then having him CRUSH the drums once you start doing takes and immediately go into clipping. i guess technically i *limit* the drums on the way in. but not too much.....just to keep from going into the red.


above all--have fun. remember, half the fun of recording is finding what works for you--not what works for me. take all things you hear/read as a starting point and jump from there.


cheers,
wade
 
Well, personally - I really don't like any mic's made by Sure. I use either a Beyer M422 on the snare, or an ATM Pro25 (which is a small hypercardioid kick mic.) That said, the 57 is pretty much the "universal" snare mic.

If you compress them, it raises the volume of the cymbals, and I've never liked the sound of those going to tape compressed for some reason - also, it can raise the cymbals level in the kick mic if you have bleed through in it.

The sole reason I left out room mic's - is that you're in a small room, and it's going to make it sound boxy, so you want to eliminate as much of the room as possible - that was why I suggested keeping the overheads in fairly close.

If you're not using the 421's on the toms - put one on the snare, that yields a killer snare sound!


The Mono overhead - directly over the drummer's head and aimed straight down will give you a very realistic mix of what the drummer hears, so you'll get sort of a "pre-mixed" recording right above his head. I normally just use a mono overhead as well - but I don't really worry about having the drumkit in stereo.

I guess these days I tend to record more natural recordings than in the past, and I try to make it as easy as possible. I guess some guys are into all that cut and paste editing....I don't want my recordings to sound like all that stuff on the radio - I want it to sound more like a Led Zeppelin recording than something that has been squashed to death with compression and has no dynamics at all.



Tim
 
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Tim Brown said:
it can raise the cymbals level in the kick mic if you have bleed through in it.
Click to expand...

tim brings up good points here.

Tim Brown said:
If you're not using the 421's on the toms - put one on the snare, that yields a killer snare sound!
Click to expand...

i was going to suggest that but didn't for some reason . maybe use a 57 on one of the toms, the 421 on the other, and the 2nd 421 on the snare. should work out nicely.

Tim Brown said:
I guess these days I tend to record more natural recordings than in the past, and I try to make it as easy as possible.
Click to expand...

i have to echo what Tim's saying. a lot of drum recording is based around what your goals are. do you want natural sounding drums? or do you want modern, "chicken mcnugget" drums (cut up and reconstituted)? the days of recording to computer have made some things easier (and cheaper), but with drums, you lose several things (tape benefits aside)--namely proper phase relationships on the engineering side of things and good performance and playing technique on the drummer's side of things.

it's *very* easy to get lost within realigning the wavforms, comping tracks, etc......and i think the music tends to suffer as a result.


cheers,
wade
 
Wow, you guys have been very insightful! I would have never dreamed of using a mono overhead, but it makes sense since the kit IS only a four piece. I will try all of your suggestions and see what happens. At least now, thanks to you two, I have a starting point. I WILL try the 421 on snare, I didn't even think of that. I was so focused on putting them on the toms! It's the only thing I was sure about!!!!!!! :confused: You learn something new everyday. Thank Tim, thanks Wade!
 
jeff5xo said:
Wow, you guys have been very insightful! I would have never dreamed of using a mono overhead, but it makes sense since the kit IS only a four piece. I will try all of your suggestions and see what happens. At least now, thanks to you two, I have a starting point. I WILL try the 421 on snare, I didn't even think of that. I was so focused on putting them on the toms! It's the only thing I was sure about!!!!!!! :confused: You learn something new everyday. Thank Tim, thanks Wade!
Click to expand...



Jeff,

Keep in mind - the Kick and Snare are the two most important drums in the kit, so focus on those. Even an "okay" tom sound is generally acceptable as long as the kick, snare, and overall kit sound really good, because the toms normally don't play as much of a role in the sound - also, 57's have been standard on toms for so long it isn't funny, so Wade's suggestion of using it on the small tom is a great one.
If your drummer is tuning to the shell's fundamental notes, you should be able to get a KILLER drumsound with just a few mics.


Tim
 
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