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delirium trigge
New member
Sure Dave, I've never done any A/B recordings just to show the difference. Me and my band can easily hear the difference. I'm sure I can record some acoustic guitar through it for example so you can hear it. I can let you hear different ways I can get it to sound with the impedance knob on the MPA II. The other pre amp I have, the FMR is a boutique company so that is pretty much documented, although I don't like it as well as the MPA II. And then I have quite a few more in the studio but mostly use the MPA II.
Yet on the forums, people will tell you the FMR will blow the MPA II away, just because FMR is a boutique company. It doesn't blow it anyway in any regard. The saffire pro 40 pre amps aren't bad though. I usually just need more headroom and I like it really quiet.
Yet on the forums, people will tell you the FMR will blow the MPA II away, just because FMR is a boutique company. It doesn't blow it anyway in any regard. The saffire pro 40 pre amps aren't bad though. I usually just need more headroom and I like it really quiet.
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ecc83
Well-known member
People tell you all sorts of things on forums. Mostly unsubstantiated bollocks.
I look forward to some properly instituted recordings, tho' how you are going to reconcile the gain staging I am not sure?
Dave.
I look forward to some properly instituted recordings, tho' how you are going to reconcile the gain staging I am not sure?
Dave.
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delirium trigge
New member
Well, what you will hear will not be compressed in anyway, you'll hear it straight out of the pre amp to Logic. I do not use the saffire pro 40 pre amps, although it doesn't have direct inputs, plugging into them and turning them all the way down doesn't seem to color it at any noticeable level. I mean this is pretty much all I can do.
Another good example, is I can do an A/B with a bass guitar. If you hear that through the MPA II vs the saffire pro 40 pre amp, that is a noticeable difference that about anyone can notice.
I will record both right under clipping.
I've noticed that a few other guys have caught on to the MPA II. Because a lot of art pre amps, suck. And so people assumed this is just a rack mountable one that does the same thing. But it's not. I've noticed on forums that a lot of people who have a lot more expensive gear are digging this thing. They make one now that does not take up any of your inputs. The MPA II with the adat or spdif of in it.
I can also include in the comparison some really cheap pre amps. Which you will notice, don't really seem to do anything but the volume up and down and the coloration can be really bad.
The MPA II is a nice piece though for home studio guys who can't afford really expensive pre amps. It seems to be the only one under a thousand dollars I can find that I like that much. Most people say for under a thousand dollars the RNP is the best. I also have it, like I said, it just isn't anything impressive like people on the forums say it is. And I'm no expert or anything but I know enough about it. I mean it's good at what it does but it's not this amazing unit it's made out to be.
I think like I said before the MPA II has so many options on it that it can make one microphone sound a ton of different ways where as that is not something a lot of cheap pre amps have on them. If you turn the plate voltage on the switch on and give it a few minutes, and then record vocals or acoustic guitar, you can even tell a huge difference in that, and with the switch off.
Go on youtube and type in Art MPA II and you'll see what I mean. For what it is, and for most of us who aren't going to spend 2 grand on a pre amp it's a nice unit. For a noob it's an extremely nice unit and then even for someone who has been doing it for a long time, they find good sounds out of it. That's how I found out about it, a lot of guys who know a lot more stuff than I do about recording. I'm not really a noob to recording but I'm not on an advanced level. I've been playing music my whole life so my ears are good for it.
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
Color=preference. Whatever that means. Preamps for the most part in this price range are usually sought after for high 'clean' gain. If you want color (whatever that means) under $1000, put a stomp box in the input chain. Same shiz.
IMO, an interface with decent preamps is way better than any of the ART preamps. I own 4 of them. Not something I would write home about. Useful for me once for scratch tracks with line inputs and to increase track count. Nothing I would recommend for actual tone benefit.
Though I could just be deaf...
IMO, an interface with decent preamps is way better than any of the ART preamps. I own 4 of them. Not something I would write home about. Useful for me once for scratch tracks with line inputs and to increase track count. Nothing I would recommend for actual tone benefit.
Though I could just be deaf...
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delirium trigge
New member
Color=preference. Whatever that means. Preamps for the most part in this price range are usually sought after for high 'clean' gain. If you want color (whatever that means) under $1000, put a stomp box in the input chain. Same shiz.
IMO, an interface with decent preamps is way better than any of the ART preamps. I own 4 of them. Not something I would write home about. Useful for me once for scratch tracks with line inputs and to increase track count. Nothing I would recommend for actual tone benefit.
Though I could just be deaf...
I've never liked any of the art pre amps either other than the MPA II. But as I said, all of the options that give you so many different sounds that allow me to dial in exactly what I'm going for is what is so great about it to me. The standard cheap art pre amp they sell, would do nothing for me.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
I had a situation a while back where I had plenty of preamps, but not enough actual mic cables. We ended up with a couple of 58s plugged directly into the line inputs, and they honestly sounded fine. It needed a bunch of gain ITB, but that is silent, clean gain. I'm sure that I suffered in the analog S/N department, but honestly that was all swamped by the room noise in the mics themselves. The mics plugged into the preamps developed a buzzing due to some horrible grounding issue that I haven't had the time to track down and fix yet...
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
Whatever floats yer boat man. That's what is good.
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
I'm not suggesting it as a best option for anybody, but I am saying that it worked surprisingly well.
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ecc83
Well-known member
"Line Inputs
Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 109dB
SNR (A-weighted): -109dB
Frequency Response: 20Hz - 20kHz +/- 0.1dB
THD+N: < 0.001% (measured with 0dBFS input and 22Hz/22kHz bandpass filter)
Noise: -90dBu (22Hz/22kHz bandpass filter)
Maximum level (A-weighted): 28.5dBu at 1%
The Pro 40 has very well specified ^ line inputs. Why would you send a pre amp though cranked down mic amp?
As I said. I await properly constituted A/B clips. And something with a bit more range than a bass please! Acoustic guitar would be favourite.
Dave.
Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 109dB
SNR (A-weighted): -109dB
Frequency Response: 20Hz - 20kHz +/- 0.1dB
THD+N: < 0.001% (measured with 0dBFS input and 22Hz/22kHz bandpass filter)
Noise: -90dBu (22Hz/22kHz bandpass filter)
Maximum level (A-weighted): 28.5dBu at 1%
The Pro 40 has very well specified ^ line inputs. Why would you send a pre amp though cranked down mic amp?
As I said. I await properly constituted A/B clips. And something with a bit more range than a bass please! Acoustic guitar would be favourite.
Dave.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
As with all discussions like this, we have to be aware that "different" and "better" are two different things. If a pre amp (or anything else in the chain) colours the audio in a way you find pleasing, that's great. Keep using your favourite. However, that's down to personal taste, not something that can be necessarily considered "better".
Second, even in A/B testing you always have to be careful of the "audio placebo" effect. If you've just spent some money on a bit of gear and plumb it into your system, you're going to be listening for things to get better to confirm that your purchase was worthwhile. The only real way to evaluate gear is with true double blind testing (and, of course, extreme care over levels, mic placement, etc. etc. since all these can introduce differences).
Like ecc83, I await the A/B comparison (and a request from me...post a couple of short wave files, not MP3 or other compressed format).
Second, even in A/B testing you always have to be careful of the "audio placebo" effect. If you've just spent some money on a bit of gear and plumb it into your system, you're going to be listening for things to get better to confirm that your purchase was worthwhile. The only real way to evaluate gear is with true double blind testing (and, of course, extreme care over levels, mic placement, etc. etc. since all these can introduce differences).
Like ecc83, I await the A/B comparison (and a request from me...post a couple of short wave files, not MP3 or other compressed format).
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delirium trigge
New member
I'm aware of that. I didn't just buy this. I've had this ART MPA II for a few years now. I just joined this thread because most people were saying when it comes to cheap pre amps don't even bother just use the interface. I disagree, but like you said, because of my taste. But I think in general most people would find it useful who want a really clean pre amp that has a ton of headroom that allows you to dial in a lot of different sounds. Low cut filters on it work well, the impedance knob is great.
But then when it comes to the FMR, okay that's considered a very nice pre amp and many professionals use it. To me there's not a huge difference in that thing and the saffire pro 40 pre amps from the interface. But the ART will get slammed and that thing will get praised.
The mic placement will be the same. We are actually recording today, so I am just going to do it during a recording session with the band, my other guitar player will be the one playing. I'll do it on both of them. Same mic, same placement.
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delirium trigge
New member
That is what I'm doing. Basically I've tried to articulate it as a noob. When you plug the pre amp into the saffire pro 40 you have two options, if you plug it up with an XLR you keep the volume all the way down and it won't affect it, or you plug it up TRS and there you go, you have a line input. That is what I do, line inputs, and I keep the volume on them all the way down.
But, I've done research, it doesn't actually bypass the pre amp when you plug in a TRS like the focusrite page told you it did. But they it's very quiet and if you keep the volume all the way down, it's as close as you can get to by passing it so they just go ahead and say it apparently. But there is no way to truly by pass the pre amp.
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delirium trigge
New member
As far as finding unity gain, I'm reading it's not 0 it's 10 on the saffire pro 40 with line inputs in. "Which officially bypass the preamps according to focusrite according to everyone else it doesn't fully."
I'll try to get it at unity gain but either way keeping it low pretty much takes out any coloring from the saffire that my ears can notice.
Dave here is a good thread to check it out and see what I mean. So you get an idea of what's going on. The line inputs are the same with a 10db pad on them. That's why they look similar in the specs. Really, if you XLR out to it, and turn it all the way down it seems to be the same thing as TRS to it and turning it to 10db
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-...o-40-bypassing-preamp-official-statement.html
I'll try to get it at unity gain but either way keeping it low pretty much takes out any coloring from the saffire that my ears can notice.
Dave here is a good thread to check it out and see what I mean. So you get an idea of what's going on. The line inputs are the same with a 10db pad on them. That's why they look similar in the specs. Really, if you XLR out to it, and turn it all the way down it seems to be the same thing as TRS to it and turning it to 10db
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-...o-40-bypassing-preamp-official-statement.html
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ecc83
Well-known member
I followed that link as far as I could until I got " Bad Gateway" but the conversation seemed to have drifted onto FW matters and the issue of whether the Pro 40 has dedicated line amplifiers or padded down mic amps did not ever seem to get resolved?
Like Bobbsy, I am perfectly happy for you whichever pre amp combination serves you best. The point is that many of the visitors here do not have clue one about electronics, audio, levels and decibabble. It is therefore confusing for them to read of "night and day" differences in equipments that would, if compared correctly, show in most cases only marginal sonic differences.
Then, the ACTUAL differences between say two A/D converters a 5:1 price apart are SO close that only the most careful tests conducted with levels matched to within 0.1dB are often needed to separate them. Even then a change of music genre can flip the preference!
To put money where gob is IMHO if the noob spends $150 on an AI, $100 on a mic (I always suggest an SDC) and $300 on a pair of monitors he will have a system that will take a HECK of a lot of money to beat.
(I might be a bit adrift with costings, I naturally am a £speaker!)
Dave.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Ah, now that's two different things.
Clean (and fairly neutral) pre amps are pretty common on any decent interface--and that's what I look for in a pre amp.
However, if you want to dial in a lot of different sound, use low cut filters or adjust impedance then it sounds like you've found something that works for you. That wouldn't fit my own personal work flow (I tend to record everything clean and dry then add any EQ etc. later) but there's no right or wrong way to do things. If there are a hundred thousand HR members there will be a hundred thousand different working methodologies.
My only point is that the things you like don't necessarily make a pre amp better...just better for YOU.
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delirium trigge
New member
I agree. I shouldn't say something is better. I guess what I'm trying to articulate, is, something like the MPA II is clearly worth the money for anyone who has used one and knew what they were doing with it. A lot of guys online will say, something that's that cheap just looks like a cool rack unit but will sound like crap. And it doesn't.
I was not able to A/B today as we were busy. But I did notice a new thing. It seems to sound better with the XLR output on the pre amp to the saffire pro 40 pre amp and the volume on 0 rather than making it a line in like you're supposed to. I've read online that this is because, it's not truly a line in like they claim. It uses the exact same circularity and everything it just adds a 10db pad on it when you make it a line in, instead of mic in. So mic in, with volume at zero on the saffire pro 40 just seems to sound better.
Because to find the sweet spot with line in, since 0, isn't really 0db because they have a 10db pad on the same dang thing, it's hard to find where it's supposed to be. Everyone says 4.5 is really 0db when line in on the saffire pro 40 but it didn't sound it to me.
Today I used line in, TRS cables, and I had to turn my pre amp up extremely loud to record my singer and I like to record at -12db for some headroom. So its' not like I record loud, I had the pre amp literally all the way up, wasn't loud enough, had to push in the +20DB of gain to get it loud enough, and then the pre amp wasn't clean enough anymore and the vocals sounded like crap compared to the other way around where 0db is actually 0db but you are running it through their pre amp with it turned all the way down.
I wish they would have made a separate circuit for the line in's like most interfaces have, rather than it using the same exact thing but having a 10db pad on it. That's why the specs look exactly the same.
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ecc83
Well-known member
Don't know about anyone else but I am starting to get a bad feeling about all this ^?
Looking at the speccs' of the ART ll, gain, MOL etc I cannot see how interfacing it with a line input* on a well respected AI can be a problem?
And OP. If you want headroom record at -18dBFS not -12. You ARE running 24bits aren't you?!
*HOWEVER it is configured and arrived at!
Dave.
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delirium trigge
New member
It is, not only or me, but for a lot of other people with the saffire pro 40. And they are figuring out the same method I am figuring out. It's not really a problem, it's just 4.5 equals 0DB instead of 0 and it's the exact same thing as XLR in at 0. But even at 4.5 it didn't sound equal to me. But that's the way the thing is designed. It's not a huge problem. You just got to figure out where the knob goes instead of going to 0 like you would anywhere else.
I prefer to record at -12, especially with what we are recording right now. Yes I record 24 bits.
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Btyre2013
New member
I love the sound of API mic pre-amps, probably the best sounding for me for any money, but lol at the price