Where do you pan your drums?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Chris Jahn
  • Start date Start date
C

Chris Jahn

New member
Hope this isnt to simalar to the other long drum thread going on, but to me its a differnt question.

I tend to like the toms panned wide, first tom, far right, second tom, dead center, floor tom far left, overheads hard left and right, kick and snare center!!

A few people who have heard some of my mixes have suggested bringing it all in a bit, whats the benifit? cuz to me it sounds muddy, but id like to hear some reasons as to why bringing them in helps the quality of the song!!
 
The general idea is to center the listener on the important parts of the experience. The tradition of whatever style of music you're working in will generally dictate that.


But that's not always the case. You don't *have* to mix anything in anyway you don't want.

Plus you have to take into consideration how you're micing these things. I generally let my overhead mic placement tell me how wide I'm going to pan things like my toms, hats, and any other part that's not always centered.

What you get is a clear and fortified image of the parts, because it's comming at you together as a unified sound. Now when you start panning those things without regard to what the overheads are doing, then you start running into imaging and clarity problems. Things start to get hazy. That's how phase works with multiple mics.


Now if I want things wider or narrower in the mix, I rely more on micing, not panning.



It's important not to worry too much about getting one thing to work in a mix, but rather all the elements working together. Let the mastering engineers deal with things like stereo enhancement, added clarity, etc.
 
Well I could understand that if you had the Guitars Pand hard Left and right and then had the Toms Far left and Right the Guitars could eat up some of the frequency space the toms would want to use.

I wasn't to fond of spacing them to far because tom rolls didnt sound as fluid next to each other.

I liked them better with say a Floor Tom panned 25% Right, Right Just off Center, Left Tom 25% Left.

If there are 4 Toms I Just keep the same spacing and move things in tighter.

But what ever sounds best is what works best for you.

If you like the panning you use, its fine as long as you make room for the frequencies by putting holes in whatever instruments occupy the same neighboring panning space.

Definately Keeping in mind what was stated above about the overheads too.
 
Drums panned way too far don't sound natural. Sounds like the drummer has 35ft. arms. If it's sounds muddy when you bring them in a bit, then panning isn't the problem. Drums can sound good in mono panned in the middle, muddiness shouldn't be an issue...Unlees the drums actually do sound muddy.
 
Chris Jahn said:
A few people who have heard some of my mixes have suggested bringing it all in a bit, whats the benifit? cuz to me it sounds muddy, but id like to hear some reasons as to why bringing them in helps the quality of the song!!
The benefit is it's another way to do things. There is no "best" way to pan anything (within a few general sonic rules). Always panning something a particular way is like always painting a picture using the same kind of subject and perspective. (Oh, yet another oblique view of a covered bridge going over a lazy creek in the afternoon.) Gets kinda boring after a while ;).

And it depends a lot upon the genre as well. Would you pan your drums that way if you were mixing a Bob Dylan acoustic set? Or how about a jazz trio with a lot of brushes on a jazz kit with just acoustic bass an piano? Or pop from Jackson Browne? Or some ballads from John Lennon? Or perhaps some reggae from one of the innumerable Marleys from Jamaica? Or techpop from Brian Eno? Most would say, "Probably not."

Or what if you're documenting a live performance and re-creating a "naturalistic" soundstage? Not very "natural" for the drums to conver the entire stage. Or how about a studio recording using a more natural 2- or 3-mic stereo drum stem? (Not everybody likes using 347 mics to record a single instrument.) Panning such a stereo stem too wide often splits the stereo image down the middle like a pair of too-tight pants.

G.
 
Other ways to say the things touched on prior-
-What if you want the kit to look like it's in the backline? Wide won't do.
-And for any given 2-mic kit spread, it gets beefier near mono. Focused and up the middle is a completely different sound than wide', even if it's for 'up front stage perspective.
Sometimes I'll go 'kit pair in', cymbals/top candy wide.
 
If your using multiple mics you do have to pay attention to were you are panning. The overheads should give you a good indication on where to pan the drums. As for the panning of overheads I like to do 50% out from center. :)
 
For me I pan High tom at R-35, mid tom at L-20 and the low tom at L-35.
 
VSpaceBoy said:
For me I pan High tom at R-35, mid tom at L-20 and the low tom at L-35.
Not to make too much of this but.. that would seem to say your drums are sort of stuck art one point of depth.
Wayne
 
If I'm doing a 5 piece kit (3 toms) I really don't pan the toms. I let the image in the overheads take care of that. If the rack toms are stomping on each other I will pan them slightly away from each other.
 
mixsit said:
Not to make too much of this but.. that would seem to say your drums are sort of stuck art one point of depth.
Wayne

Yes.. I guess thats the point though. To me, it sounds way too unrealistic to pan the drums way out. Thats NEVER how I hear it in the room when I watch a band. I usually like the toms towards the center, but out of the way of the vox, bass, snare, and kick. I leave the outsides for keys and guitars.

I do like to pan out percussion intruments sometimes though for effect.
 
mixsit said:
Not to make too much of this but.. that would seem to say your drums are sort of stuck art one point of depth.
Wayne


What does panning have to do with depth?
 
NL5 said:
What does panning have to do with depth?
Just a quick way of saying it. There's wet/dry depth, some other factors, but I was thinking in terms of sound stage. If they're not 'close how do they be wide. :)
..But that's not to say mono' has to be back'. In you face punching up the center works frikkin great. :D
 
it's not realistic to obvious delay or distortion to a vocal either, it's not realistic to double track, it's not realistic to suck midrange out of the kick, it's not realistic to close mic things with a cardioid mic.

The most realistic thing would be record 100% dry, to throw the faders up, pan it like the band is on stage, and hit print. Who does that in the studio though?

Pan however you want. Try different panning schemes and see what's you like best, and what's sounds best for the song you're doing. Realistic or not.....
 
Well I guess your right...


but when I record my acoustic guitar I don't add certain effects, or piano, or strings... etc

depends on the venue
 
As already mentioned, there is no one correct way to pan drums.

It has to do with so many different factors.

It depends on how the drums were recorded most of all. An XY overhead position will give you a much different sound than a spaced pair, as far as width is concerned. (The same goes for any other overhead mic positioning.)

As far as toms are concerned, there are other things to consider as well. Sometimes, a basic rule of thumb is to listen to the overheads in solo and to pan the toms in whatever positioning you hear them in the overheads. But, that's not the only consideration, IMO. Toms are very rarely the most important element of a song. Therefore, other instruments should take precedent. For example, if an important guitar part is panned 25% left, and that's were you'd normally pan your tom. You may want to reconsider the tom's positioning to further get it out of the way of that guitar. Also, the way that the toms are being used in the song come into play. If they are being used to play fast fills, you will want to make sure that the sound from one tom to the other is very fluid. If they are being used more sparingly, you could more than likely afford to pan them out wider. It may not sound as natural. But, "natural" isn't always what we're going for.

As far as kick and snare are concerned, I typically don't get too experimental. I'm not saying that it is wrong to get experimental. I just haven't yet mixed a song in which panning a kick anywhere off-center has seemed appropriate. I have mixed a song, however, in which a drawn out, military-type, snare roll in the bridge began on the far left of the soundscape and gradually made its way to the center. But, other than that, kick and snare typically remain up the center for me. But, feel free to get creative.

All of that being said, I also typically pan according to the drummer's perspective (unless the producer or artist requests otherwise). Basically, my only reasoning for that is the fact that I mainly listened to Incubus albums when learning to mix. And, their drums are typically mixed from the drummer's perspective. I know that's not the world's best logic. But, most casual listeners won't notice anyway.

I have heard albums in which one song was mixed from the drummer's perspective, and then the next was mixed from the audience's perspective, even when both songs were mixed by the same person.

Also, hi-hat is often a topic of large concern when dealing with panning issues. This is an important one. And, to me, the song completely determines the placement of the high hat. What role does the hi-hat play in the song? Listen to the hi-hat up the middle. Listen to the hi-hat panned far off to one side. And listen to the hi-hat at every position in between. Listen to how it carries the song. Sometimes, too wide makes it almost distracting. Sometimes, based on the vocal line, the hi-hat gets buried by the vocals if in the center. The hi-hat is often a very important part of the song. Other times, it play no significant role. Pan it accordingly.

Again, there is no one correct way to pan drums. If you're mixing a solo drum performance, then that's one thing. But, that's not what I'm talking about. We're mixing a SONG. And the song is the #1 factor in mixing. When mixing, actually THINK about what you are doing. Don't expect some formula to give you great results every time. This isn't mathematics. It's mixing. The reason I do it is so that I can be creative. Every song is different. Treat it that way. I know this isn't necessarily the answer that you wanted to hear. But, it's the truth.
 
Man, you guys sound like a bunch of wussies! ;)

The first thing I notice is that many people have their drums panned audience perspective. That drives me nuts.

The second thing is that when I listen to "commercial" CDs, toms are generally not narrow in the mix. Fills travel around the spectrum. I realize that many people may not have the luxury of individual drums and may rely on their overheads for stereo sound, so the choice is easy. Personally, I'll always use at least one mic per drum, and I'm not going to leave it in the middle.

A big concern is the song and the context. If I'm doing a straight ahead rock song with very little tom work, they'll be pretty narrow. If I'm doing a song where theres an obvious fill that happens regularly and is a prominent part of the song, I'll make it stick out and wide pan that sucker. Why stick it in one place and leave it there? Maybe for the verses I've got a narrow mix and the choruses are much wider. Maybe for this verse the high tom is on the right, the second verse puts it on the left.

I also enjoy putting all the drum tracks completely on one side in mono. Pan them all hard left! If you've got a good drummer, have him play the same stuff (or not the same stuff) twice and hard pan one performance left and the other right.
 
VSpaceBoy said:
Well I guess your right...


but when I record my acoustic guitar I don't add certain effects, or piano, or strings... etc

depends on the venue

Yeah, that's fine, but I was just giving an example that if you have to do something unrealistic to make something sound cool, than there's nothing wrong with that. There are tons of engineers panning overheads and even toms hard right and left. Some engineers ONLY pan things hard right and left, or center- nothing in between. I say do whatever makes your dick dance. The more I would have listened to my intuition when starting out(which was 3 weeks ago), instead of listening "rules" on certain things, I would be in a much shallower cesspool of analytical human feces right now.

To the OP: Never take anything you hear on a forum as a "rule" or as gospel. Just think of it as a suggestion for you to try out, listening very carefully to see if it works for you. If it doesn't seem to be working, simply go with your gut.
 
Back
Top