Where do you guys draw the line?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Blue Bear Sound
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I say just charge them for it and if they balk at it. Give them a break. If it is really better alot of the time they will pony up the overage and then come back.

If they are as cheapo as I am, dont do it a second time.:rolleyes:
 
Well here is something I have started doing recently:
When someone books time I ask, what kind of working enviroment are they expecting:
Proish :), we count every hour and I won't give any of my oppinions and do the best job I can with the takes and sounds they can produce.
or
A Homish :), where I act like a co-producer and help them get the guitar sounds they are after, put in a couple of hours of my own time etc.
But I'm not running a pro studio, it's more a home/projects studio which I own and operate. And the bands here don't have a producer, they are 90% self produced.

Keijo
 
First off - Bruce, good thread!

Every time (well almost) I have a client I probably put in 2-10 hours of time trying to create a better mix or whatever it is I hear in my head (amount of time equates to the size of the project). I don't know that I ever "draw the line" - but I balance on it often.

I normally include the hours in my log and reflect them in my billing, but then show a credit to off-set all or part of the time (if my effort contributed something of significance, I'm more inclined to "bill the time"). If the client resists, I'll concede (since they did not "ask" for the extra effort). On rare occasions I've actually received a "bonus" - in appreciation for the extra effort - although most times the effort is not appreciated at all.

If I have faith in the artist or the project (ie: if they are good, professional, etc.) I am more inclined to put in the extra effort - for 2 reasons: 1) I enjoy working with quality people, 2) I anticipate a better chance the material will reach the right people - and I want my work reflected accordingly.

If it is someone with limited talent, limited focus or someone who if too difficult to deal with, I'm more likely to give them a product with the least amount of time and effort - I'd rather spend that time and effort on projects I enjoy.

As a side comment (and I've posted on this subject before) - I'm always amazed when a client comes in and is "surprised" to learn that you can't track and mix a song in 2 hours.
 
A general rule when selling things or providing services is to underpromise and overdeliver. If your customer leaves you with the feeling he got exactly what he expected, fine. If he leaves you with the feeling he got more than he expected, better - even though it's just a little more than expected. Like a guitar salesman giving you a set of strings and a strap when you buy a new guitar. Those things cost a fraction of the guitar, but you leave the shop happier than you otherwise would have (and more inclined to come back) - because you got more than you expected.

So I'd say you shouldn't worry about throwing in some extra hours for free (and I agree with Dobro's point - you're mostly doing it for your own satisfaction anyway). Just make sure you tell the band that you did! I wouldn't worry about adding on an extra 10% of the time I agreed with the band before the recording. That of course varies with how much I like the band and its members.
 
Isn't this reason number 2... or maybe number 3 ....why studio owners/engineers can't make a living?? ....or like get paid about $2.33/hr if you total it all up??? ...unless your some 9-5 studio in Nashville catering to the *hit* machines?? ha!!! been there done that...STILL there!!! (no tee-shirt) ha!!! ;-)
 
"Where do you guys draw the line? "

___________________ <--- there look
 
this is a great thread.

I have not mxed for pay yet, so I basically take time and do the best job I can do. Its fun for me. Its like a pastime.

HOWEVER, if one is operating a studio and making extra income out of it, there are two things to keep in mind.

The mix should never leave the studio in a substandard form. If you feel that something does not sound right, fix it. Usually musicians cant tell the difference between A and B(in recording) and what is acceptable to them might be unnaceptable to a mix engineer.

After the mix has passed the qualifying stage, and its ready to go anywhere in the world, you can then spend some more time tweaking. I would say that you should charge until the mix is good, but if you just want to tweak, then there is no need to charge, since there is really no need to tweak in the first place.

I dont doubt that even the major labels sometimes make some compromises based on time and if given unlimited time could probably have come up with a slightly better sound. The listeners dont care, as long as it passes the initial qualifying stage.
 
As any of you know who read my posts, I'm just an dedicated amateur so I've never had to deal with this situation (at least not in years). But here's a story that illustrates the other end of the scale, so to speak, in this situation. Keep in mind it's heresay, but I'm sure its accurate.

There's a guy here in Detroit (I'll leave his name out) that I've met a few times, nice guy, friend-of-a friend kind of thing. He has his own studio and has done extremely well as both a composer and producer of radio & TV commercial music. Lots of little 30 and 60 second comercial bits. If you have ever see an automobile commercial you've probably heard his stuff. I would take a guess that his income is very far into 6 figures.

On occasion he also does work in his studio with some of his musician friends. On this one occasion his friend comes over late one night because he needs to do his own comercial spot with a quick deadline. So they agree to co-op on it. The two of them write and record the spot, then his friend mixes it. Satisfied, the friend goes home.

The next day another friend of mine stops by and visits Mr. Producer guy. It turns out he has been up all night redoing parts and re-mixing the whole thing. He plays my friend both the "before" and "after" mixes. My friend thinks both of them sound great, but that the redo is a bit better.

My friends asks the producer if it was really necessary to redo it since the first version sounded fine. Mr. Producers answer was that he had established his own high standard for all of his work, and that the ad agencies who were the bulk of his customers had come to expect it. Even if the work had not been originally intended for him, he refused to let any piece of work leave his studio unless he was 100% satisfied that it met his standards.
 
Blue Bear. I know you and I havent seen eye to eye, but I must say that I am impressed by your work ethic. What you do speaks for itself. You take PRIDE in your WORK and you value it. Your not looking at the $$$$$$$$ aspect. You have set standards for yourself and anything LESS is not sutible. of course the guy might not know about the verb, but YOU do. I like hearing about people that still have values and want to see the job complete and sounding as best as possible. i take my hat off to you Bear.



czar of bizarre
 
I think my perspective might sound slightly out of line. But then, I've only ever recorded and produced professionally, and over the years, especially in the early years, made many mistakes. I learned, and as a result I'm really a bit of an oddball as far as charging etc. is concerned, in other words, I might charge nothing but costs where others charge a lot, etc. Why? Quite simply, I much rather don't charge for recording and production, but take a share of potential profit. This only works if you believe in the artists you are working with, and if you believe in your ability to produce a commercially viable product, because if you don't, you're broke.

Anyway... some lessons learned:

- ALWAYS discuss, agree, put in writing EVERYTHING pertaining to the recording to be made. It does NOT matter if you just do it for a friend, just make a demo, make a complete production for a record major. This avoids arguments, and forms a basis for resolving potential disagreements.

- Break your costs to the client down clearly. Work out your operating costs. Write-off equipment costs - electricity - maintenance - telephone - heating - water - aircon - furniture - everything. Doesn't matter if you've got a small or a huge place, sit down and break it down, it will at least be a good exersize.
When you are done with that, you have your basic running costs, to which you can add a suiteable profit margin.
After this, decide how much people have to charge for you.
Once again, this gives you flexibiliy in resolving potential problems with your clients. For example, take Bruce's scenario. He's prepared to keep working for nothing to make sure he turns out a good product. If he would break all his costs down, he could tell his clients "Hey man, I'll keep at it for a while, I won't charge you my time, just the studio costs". If the client is happy with that, fine. If the client isn't, I suggest you just don't do the work, as it DOES cost money to run a studio, there is no such thing as working for free, it costs you money to work!

- What are you going to do for a client? Do they know what they want? Are they going to produce it themselves? Do they want you to produce it? Again, decide this beforehand. Don't underestimate the value of production, don't forget that producers can ear as least as much as artists from the sale of records. So why should you do it for free? If an artist wants you to produce them, either share in potential success, and if not, express it in your fees.

- Be businesslike. Yes I know, music is all about friends and atmospheres - at least it should be. If you are direct and businesslike people will know where they stand, it will result in a good atmosphere, and whats even more important, you will be valued and respected for it.

How do I do it?

Well, first off all, I work with who I want to work with. If someone wants to record here and I don't feel I could do the music justice, I'll get them another engineer, charge them studio time, and they can pay the engineer direct.

Second, I like to work with people I've worked with before, so I know what and how to work, and I'll have fun doing it. Like in the recent project with Pete Bardens and Mick Fleetwood.

Third, I like to work with people who I consider having great potential. I don't charge them, I share in success instead. So the money only comes IF I do my job right. If I screw up, I don't earn. Fair enough. That's the way I work with Uru, Tidawt and Jean-Michel Byron, that takes up almost all my "free" time.

Fourth, I'm very careful who I choose to work with, even if people want me to work on their stuff. Current example, main label act, not at all happy with their producer / mixes, want everything remixed. I really like their tracks, but I want to make sure I can deliver, so that they are happy AND I am happy. I told them I'd mix one track for them, free of charge. No time restrictions, if it takes a week so be it, but its not leaving until its right. It will give us a chance to see if we can make each other happy, if there is a good fit. If we're all happy, I'll do the whole CD.

Hope my ramblings are somewhat usefull to someone ;)
 
Excellent perspective Sjoko - I agree with you... although the majority of my clientele is the demo, knock-off, or karaoke-vocal crowd... pays money but has no future profit potential!

For myself, I believe in a certain standard of audio - if I feel a little extra is all it will take above the budget to make it "that much better", I generally am happy to do it for my own satisfaction. It also depends on the client -- if I judge the client to be the type who would appreciate it (as was the case with the client who got me started on this particular thread!), I do it as a "cost of business" thing -- they appreciate it, and hire me to do their next song as well -- repeat business!

I find I have to constantly balance my "sonic ethics" between budget and revenue, return for my extra time investment, and my personal requirement of putting out audio that sounds the way it should to MY ears, not just the clients.

It's heartening to know that many of you out there have been in, or face the same "conflict" from time to time as well!

Thanks again for everyone's input....

Bruce

PS - and Czar - you surprised the crap out of me, and thanks! :)
 
My solution to this problem :

If I like the music and find it commercial interesting I 'sign' the band or artist on a 'pay per copy' basis. I get a certain amount per copy sold of the recording. 9 out of 10 projects won't make profit this way, but if you're lucky number 10 will. The amount paid per copy should be based on the number of copy's estimated to be sold. If its a hit, you get a good profit out of it, and nobody will blame you, since you took part of the risk. If its a bummer you've probably learned a lot, and that can be seen as paid too.

If you are a commercial studio and you need to make a living out if it, there comes a time you have to accept that most musician are trying to be your 'friend'. They all want to use your studio, but ofcourse for a 'friends-price'.
I did this for several years, and never felt comfortable sending bills around. When my car broke down, I got a bill that was incredible...turned out my friend the mecanic couldn't work for a 'friends-price', 'cause he had a garage to run. Well, parts costs money and you are a customer he said.

These days I invite people before doing recordings with them. We talk the project over, and make a good planning. I do this for free. If get out of schedule, I can warn the customer in advance , and discuss wether we are going to make extra hours, or cut some hour on other parts. This way nobody gets suprised with the extra hours made. And I get paid my extra hours.


(In real live, I allways make a customer-discount on the bill, e.g. 32 hours will be billed like : 30 hours X $$, 2 hours X free)
 
Bruce:
I guess I'd have to say I agree with you. Keep in mind I've only done a few projects since I got my studio running a few months ago. I almost feel I would like to spend the time to get it right no matter how long it takes, AS LONG as they are good musicians.

A friend who has a studio very simillar to mine seems to get all the untalented local kid bands and he has a completely different outlook. He charges only by the hour and really won't record for more than 5 hours in a row. I've been there during his sessions and it's pitiful. It's funny he asks me how I've found "the good bands"

What I'm saying is I think it's perfectly acceptable to put extra time in....but don't do it for everyone. I guess I'd say if they suck, they don't deserve your extra time.
 
Ive done it

I did it with the last band I worked with. I sat up all night for a week playing with different things and cleaning up stuff that would normaly go untouched. To the people that hear it and to myself, your only as good as your last project. So I do alot of extra stuff just out of respect for the recording. But everyone has their own limit when they say "done". If you feel good about the recording, take the extra time. It could worth it in the long run.
 
Re: Ive done it

idiot_ink said:
So I do alot of extra stuff just out of respect for the recording.
YES!!!! That's what I'm talking about right there!

(my dilemna comes from balancing that with time billable back to the client - I may have much more respect for the recording than the client does!)

I guess that's where I have to temper the business side with the engineering side.

Lots of great insights here... thumbs up all!

Bruce
 
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