Where do you guys draw the line?

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Blue Bear Sound

Blue Bear Sound

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For those of you who book clients into your studios, where do you draw the line in terms of client production.

Plenty of times, I will do overtime (especially mixing/post-production) on the cuff simply because I'm being anal about some aspect of the sound. I don't charge it back to the client because I feel many times they would think it's good enough, but it isn't good enough for me.......

Is everyone in the same boat? If not, how do you get around that rotten feeling of letting something go out that you know could be better?? Or does everyone do these extras freebies for the client as just being part of the job?

Thanks...
...Curious Bear :)
 
i dont book people, but i have booked studio time. and i've gone in with every intention tell ing the guy who owned the place that this is a demo. 100% never going to be released in any way shap or form. He said after we finished the two days of 8 hours that he could hold onto it and mix it on his own free of charge, do a little more here and there. but we said that its ok. if thats what the clients want i think its fine if they come in and tell you. if they expect gold for cheap and no time, then maybe they dont deserve it because they are trying to be meisers. if they are paying well and taking time, i think thats a different story.
 
yup

I occasionally do the same thing. For two reasons, i know it could be better, and it will be alot of fun and experience trying to make it better. second, that CD could go around to hundred of people, sure most people dont know the difference, but the people who are in a band and interested in a recording, will decide whether or not they would want to record with you or not.

but yah, i have one time booked a band that came in and recorded drums for about 5 hours. it sounded alright solo even though it was recorded with really crappy drum set. later that night i listened to it really carefully, and realized, that there was no way the drum sounds were going to cut through the whole mix. next day they came in, and i told them that i recommded we re-recorded the drums. i had already planned for it and had a barrowed drum set in the studio already for them. but i felt responsible so i said i wouldnt charge them for it. they ended up paying anyway even when i insisted they didnt.

yes, i was concerned about getting the best product i can give them. but also, if someone were to listen to that drum, even though i did everything right, it would have sounded like i didnt know what i was doing, thus, a drop in business.

drawing the line?? i dunno, i havnt quite figured that out myself. basically, if its my fault it doesnt sound the way it should, and i ignored it before, then i will usually cut some slack. but if their fault, i normally just put up with it because i know that there was nothing else i could do to make it better. which is also a good reason why you should get demos of the band first, not really good demos, but at least make sure they can keep a beat live, and can sing and play in tune. otherwise, it wont sound as good as it could even if i was on a 64 track protools studio, with the nicest amps, mics, drums you can get.

darnold
 
btw

this is why fix it in the mix attitude never works. when your tracking, get the best sound you can (the sound you want)without any eq or compression. if the sound is middy, then move the mic so its not. dont say, oh that sounds good but its middy, oh well ill just fix it with EQ when we are mixing.


darnold
 
All good points, but I'm not talking about taking extra time to fix a mistake that I was responsible for, I mean more along the lines of everything's hunky-dory, but I go the extra mile at say mixing because I want that 'verb "just right", even though I'm well past the client noticing the difference anymore!

I guess I'm asking how far to you go after the client has already reached their budget -- is it game-over right away, or is there that little (a lot!) extra thrown in?

Still curious Bear.................. ;)
 
I go all out for friends that I record and I do it all for FREE!! So I would REALLY go all out if I was actually getting paid to do it. Unless they needed it by a certain time and in which case I would probably give them another one "after" I tweeked with it a bit more and got it "just right". :)

-tkr
 
Be careful about giving work away Bruce!

Either bid on a per song basis, with a certain minimum hours spent per song, or charge for ALL the time, or live with your current uneasiness!

Option two seems to work out best.

Ed
 
Factor It In...

I know that I want to take extra time mixing or doing a mix over or retracking something so I tell the client that before we even start. When I give a quote I factor in extra hours. That way I get paid for the extra work with no suprises to the client. If I don't use the hours then the client is happy that they saved extra money under budget.
 
You could give the client a choice, give them a reference cd-r of what is "hunky-dory" and then give them a listen of a cd-r of what you think sounds better. Tell them that for a fee you can give them the Pre-Master mix of your extra effort, if they don't want to pay for it, you have a reference cd of what you can do, and its great for other potential clients to audition your abilities.

Peace,
Dennis
 
an hour or two extra free isn't bad i do belive. Your name is on the project and you better be damn sure you did the best you can. If you hold to exact time the band may not be able to afford more time and you're left with a half ass attempt. Plus if you bust your ass and make them sound the best that you can, they'll tell a fellow band who is looking to record and book time with you. I'd consider it an expence worth more than you're loosing!
 
Curious Bear,

I don't charge it back to the client because I feel many times they would think it's good enough, but it isn't good enough for me.
Click to expand...

If I may, I'd like to suggest that you answered your own question with your above comment.

If you are running your studio from a capitalistic standpoint, you bill the client until he/she/they are pleased, then send and invoice.

If you are running your studio from an artist perspective, you make the recording "perfect" regardless of agreed upon billing rates/hours/etc.

Like most studio's, you fall in the middle somewhere, and your viewpoints is what makes you unique. I've worked with "mill houses" as well as "anal retentive" studios, and they all have their place in the industry.

I would go with the client being happy as your first and formost goal. After all, it is their money :) If you toss in a little extra, thats great for your reputation, but giving 20 hours of mastering for free to produce something over and above what the client requires, is drawing time and energy away from things you want or need to do.

Hope I helped!

Frederic
 
More good points... although some conflicting viewpoints!

Atomic... that's a cool, different spin on the idea, although it has the potential of backfiring in one's face -- "ok... here's the version you paid for..... and here's the better one that will cost you an extra $50 to own!"

Kinda like upselling at a fast food place -- "...and would you like to upsize your mix to the BIGGIE sound for only $50, sir??" :)

:D :D

Thanks for the opinions gentlemen.........

Bruce
 
I realize the potential is there, but like all the options, you can get an idea from the client on what you can do extra as a "deal". Same sort of analogy, everyone who goes to McDonalds, knows they can get a hamburger, but if you offer cheese for 5 cents more..some will bite, some won't. Maybe a combination might be in order, offer a basic mix and the "extended" mix for X % more. I think that it will all depend on the client really, and having flexable options depending on thier situation might be best, take a look at Badanimals.com pricing to see if you can come up with more pricing options to see how they handle those situations.

Peace,
Dennis
 
No Onions Please...

If I may interject one more time before this thread closes is that the client is paying you for the best job you can possibly do. There should be no options. If you think you need more time to do a proper mix...then tell the client and bill them. You are worth it aren't you? I've done this before and have'nt had any problems. You just have to find a balaance between the price they paid and how the client and mixes will benefit from the extra time you put in. If they want the cheap way out send them to the something for nothing isle at the 8 track adat studio down the street. NEVER sell yourself short and you'll always be taken seriously, with respect and paid well for it. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
If needed I do a few hour freebie to get the mix just right. It would be kind of lame to click stop the second the clients money runs out :).
And for some bands I really like myself I set a per song price before we start recording. I won't get as much money, but the production is usually much better becuase noone is watching the clock while tracking and we make as many retakes as needed to get the sound and take we need.

Keijo
 
I'm not saying you have to hit the stop button when the cash runs out. What I'm saying is that with proper planning that whole scenario should never even happen. Course the overrun happens to everyone...but think how much money and time is lost. Just plan out the project with the client. Prepare them mentally and financially for the extra hours you may or maynot put into it. That's what budgeting is all about. When I give a quote it's on a per project basis as well. If I do spend extra time in something it's the preparation of the studio to make it as cozy as possible...any hoo...I'm done babbling...lol
 
The VERY FIRST thing I do with a paying gig, is during the first 5 mins. of conversation, I ask them what their goal is, budget, and instrumentation, how prepared they are, etc., etc. After sizing up the situation, you can explain how long things should/usually take, what can get done for their money, quality levels, and so on. If you can't estimate at this point, you have no business charging fees. Sure, there will be exceptions, but you should be able to spot those before they happen at this point in your career...or you should quickly learn. Shifting gears and putting a little of "YOURSELF" into the project, by now playing *producer*, and getting a little more creative as an engineer, you can make that decision at the time...but usually for me, that only happens when the talent excells. If it is just some shit band, with lousy vocals, do your best, stick to your scheduling, and make sure the client gets what they want...NOT WHAT YOU WANT. Who is to say that a *better* product IN YOUR MIND will serve your studio reputation better than a band saying that you where a dynamite guy to work with....by doing a great [but not nec. perfect job], holding to budget, and accomplishing predetermined goals. I have to say that these situations that you seem to elude to Bruce, are the ones where the bands aren't really as *good* as they could be, and therefore, you feel some extra input from somebody better [like yourself] is needed. Think of the circles that these musicians will travel in and talk to.....people you think will be impressed by your "extra input."....I think not. When the band KICKS ASS, be a part of it, do what it takes to get a killer product...make some money that is fair to you, and get your name on THOSE projects. Your personality and ease to work with goes just as far, if not farther, than the product you put out.
 
Interesting point of view mixmkr...

Thanks again for all the responses guys... I was asking because I recently underestimated on a project and wondered what everyone else's concept of handling a similar situation would be....

Good ideas everyone!

Bruce
 
I have a line that I refuse to cross. . .Don't do demos. Then when you do a mix, it's for real. Most people can do demos with all the cheap gear that's on the market these days anyway.
 
In a pro studio, there's almost always gonna be a tension, sometimes a conflict, between quality (the best recording you can get) and available resources (money and time). Where do you draw the line? Ordinarily, I'd say something like: "Stick with the original estimate, or if you're smart enough to anticipate possible difficulties, do what Vance suggested and build a buffer into your estimate."

However, what you said at one point was this: "All good points, but I'm not talking about taking extra time to fix a mistake that I was responsible for, I mean more along the lines of everything's hunky-dory, but I go the extra mile at say mixing because I want that 'verb "just right", even though I'm well past the client noticing the difference anymore!"

Well, if it's well past what the client notices, then you're not doing it for the client anymore, you're doing it for your own satisfaction, right? So, if you *want* to do that for free, you're justified. If you can get away with charging for it ("Look, here's why I spent an extra three hours on this mix and why the bill's bigger, and why I think it's worth it."), then again I think you're justified.

Thing is, what will the client think? If they don't notice the difference you've made with the extra three hours mixing time, then:

a) they won't appreciate the extra time you've spent for free - they'll just think you're anal

b) they won't appreciate the reasons for the larger bill - they'll just think you're overcharging or working too slow.

Here's a question: is this a parallel situation to tracking right vs. fixing in the mix? Getting it right at the outset rather than fixing it later? I know, I know - you can't always anticipate every turning of the path ahead of time. :D
 
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