where did your OD journey take you?

[true-eurt]

So this notion of a Tube Screamer before the amp to just give it a bump sounds interesting. But here's a question: has anyone had any experience with both the real Tube Screamer and the one modeled in the PodXT Live?

I've got the POD and I'm wondering if it will at least come close if I just punch in the TS on the POD before the amp--might be a good way to see if I like the effect before buying the pedal.

I have the real Tube Screamer...and I don't even know what the heck I'm doing...I'm sure it would sound MUCH better if I could only play....but it's still the only pedal I can say I truly love and will keep for sure...I have no idea about the POD MOD sound either...so I guess I'm no help, am I?

 

[pohaku]

As all my guitar amps are tube amps, except my Ultrasound for acoustic guitars, most often I go straight into the amp (although I do use time based effects like delays and phasers). Otherwise, if I want a bit extra, I use a Matchless HotBox, or, if I'm attempting to emulate someone else's use of an OD pedal, a Keeley TS9DX Flexi-4X2 (who names these things anyway?).

I do sometimes use an attenuator (THD Hot Plate), but most of my amps aren't high wattage units anyway. Fender Super Champ (18w), 1964 Fender Champ (a whopping 5w), Matchless SC-30 (30w and half power switch) and an Ampeg B15N Fliptop (30w). Generally, I can turn them up enough to get the sound and breakup I want without the volume becoming oppressive or having things vibrate off the shelves.

 

[WhiteStrat]

I have the real Tube Screamer...and I don't even know what the heck I'm doing...I'm sure it would sound MUCH better if I could only play....but it's still the only pedal I can say I truly love and will keep for sure...I have no idea about the POD MOD sound either...so I guess I'm no help, am I?:D

It's the thought that counts, no? Seriously, your input on the Tube Screamer is a ringing endorsement. That helps. Thanks!

 

[NL5]

Well, on my purest days, I'm a guitar into the amp kind of guy

That's the beauty of True Bypass on the Keeley. Unless it's engaged, it is straight into the amp.....

Yeah, the "X" version is the repro.

 

[K Road]

I'm with the tube amp crowd here. I've got a Crate Vintage Tube (15") amp. On the OD/Gain channel the sound is simply superb - very warm with enough rich even harmonics to make an OD pedal redundant.

K.

 

[WhiteStrat]

I'm with the tube amp crowd here. I've got a Crate Vintage Tube (15") amp. On the OD/Gain channel the sound is simply superb - very warm with enough rich even harmonics to make an OD pedal redundant.

K.

Yeah me too...

I'm not sure if folks are talking to me or the OP (since I jumped in early). I'm not qestioning the value of a tube amp. I've got a tube amp that I love.

I'm simply questioning the application and/or value of an OD in front of the tube amp. I know some players do so, but I haven't used an OD or distortion pedal since I got this amp...

 

[Light]

So opening the master volume all the way doesn't mitigate the damage to the tone? It has it's effect regardless of the position?

I just ask because I usually record w/an attenuator anyway--thought not with the master volume on 10--more like 4 or 5 to get those tubes warming up. I just wonder if it's worth cranking it all the way up (attenuating more of course).

I know--try it and see...

It will depend on the design of the master volume, I suppose, with some designs being notorious for shitty sound, and others having a good reputation. Some will have less effect, some more, and at least in theory some shouldn't be a problem when you turn them up to ten. The thing is, anytime you put more stuff in the signal you will have an effect, even if it is just bleeding off some highs through the pot.

I'm not enough of an electronics guy to know about the design issues, but I can say that I have NEVER played a master volume amp that had an overdriven sound I wanted to play. They can do really pristine cleans, but I'm not much interested in those these days (even when I'm playing clean, I want a little dirt when I hit the thing hard).

The other thing, of course, is if you don't get the speaker moving enough air to make the cabinet move, you loose another major part of the sound.

It's pretty simple really, and kind of makes sense if you ask me. Little room=little amp. Big room=big amp. Turn them up until they sound right. Done. (It's not always 10, either - on my AC30ish amp I like it about 6-7.)

Really, though, go out and get a great amp without a Master Volume, and you will probably know exactly what I'm talking about about one minute after you start playing through it.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[WhiteStrat]

It will depend on the design of the master volume, I suppose, with some designs being notorious for shitty sound, and others having a good reputation. Some will have less effect, some more, and at least in theory some shouldn't be a problem when you turn them up to ten. The thing is, anytime you put more stuff in the signal you will have an effect, even if it is just bleeding off some highs through the pot.

I'm not enough of an electronics guy to know about the design issues, but I can say that I have NEVER played a master volume amp that had an overdriven sound I wanted to play. They can do really pristine cleans, but I'm not much interested in those these days (even when I'm playing clean, I want a little dirt when I hit the thing hard).

The other thing, of course, is if you don't get the speaker moving enough air to make the cabinet move, you loose another major part of the sound.

It's pretty simple really, and kind of makes sense if you ask me. Little room=little amp. Big room=big amp. Turn them up until they sound right. Done. (It's not always 10, either - on my AC30ish amp I like it about 6-7.)

Really, though, go out and get a great amp without a Master Volume, and you will probably know exactly what I'm talking about about one minute after you start playing through it.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

You're right about that. I overbought big time--quit playing in a real band situation right after I bought the 100 watt dual 12 combo (84 lbs!!). I put it on 4 and attenuate it down to about 10-20% of that just to play in my home studio.

I will be in the market for a much smaller, simpler amp in the near future--so this advice on the master volume is very helpful indeed. Thanks!

 

[Light]

I suppose I should also mention that on my less than pure days, I do sometime throw a compressor/boost pedal in there (a clone of an Orange Squeezer and a MosFET clean boost pedal I made - they are both on one switch). The idea there is just to drive the amp a little harder on the really rocking stuff. Mostly needed when using the Strat or the Surf Beast (i.e., with single coils that don't drive the amp so hard). And yeah, it's true bypass. Too bad the Boss DD-20 isn't. I guess I could make a true bypass for it pretty easy, but that's just one more thing I've got to worry about on the floor, you know?


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

You're right about that. I overbought big time--quit playing in a real band situation right after I bought the 100 watt dual 12 combo (84 lbs!!). I put it on 4 and attenuate it down to about 10-20% of that just to play in my home studio.

I will be in the market for a much smaller, simpler amp in the near future--so this advice on the master volume is very helpful indeed. Thanks!

Savage Audio is making some very cool little amps. Just saying.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Jouni]

OD....

I'm sticking with my V-twin. plusses are, I don't need a good amp. Solidstate will do.

Then again, you can overdrive that with a V-stack..:

 

[legionserial]

Always been more of an amp fan than a pedal fan. I've never used soley pedals for distortion or overdive. The first distortion pedal I bought was a cheap one soley for the purpose of boosting the gain I already had on my amp to near ridiculous levels for a deliberately insane sick feedback-laden sound.. I bought a TS-7 recently, but again for boosting (of the non-insane variety this time), moreso than for the OD on it's own. One of the things I've never understood is why those Metal Zone's are so popular. One of my friends came over for a jam and insisted in plugging his metal zone into one of my amps, which already had some pretty nice distortion and I couldn't persuade him to even try the amp distortion on it's own. Guess it's just a matter of personal taste.

 

[ggunn]

So opening the master volume all the way doesn't mitigate the damage to the tone? It has it's effect regardless of the position?

I just ask because I usually record w/an attenuator anyway--thought not with the master volume on 10--more like 4 or 5 to get those tubes warming up. I just wonder if it's worth cranking it all the way up (attenuating more of course).

Turning the master volume up attenuates less, not more. All the way up is zero attenuation.

All a master volume is is a pot between the preamp and power amp sections. When you turn it up all the way, it is out of the circuit except for a very large parallel resistance to ground. IMO it does not affect the tone in any appreciable way when it is all the way up.

What a master volume does is allow you to clip the preamp tubes while keeping the power tubes running cool, i.e., at low volume. Preamp tubes have "harder" voltage rails than do power tubes, so the clipping is not as soft and warm sounding as power tube clipping. Hence a lot of folks' opinion that master volume amps suck. I agree that power tube clipping sounds much better than preamp tube clipping; a small amp with its power section pushed hard sounds better.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Turning the master volume up attenuates less, not more. All the way up is zero attenuation.

All a master volume is is a pot between the preamp and power amp sections. When you turn it up all the way, it is out of the circuit except for a very large parallel resistance to ground. IMO it does not affect the tone in any appreciable way when it is all the way up.

What a master volume does is allow you to clip the preamp tubes while keeping the power tubes running cool, i.e., at low volume. Preamp tubes have "harder" voltage rails than do power tubes, so the clipping is not as soft and warm sounding as power tube clipping. Hence a lot of folks' opinion that master volume amps suck. I agree that power tube clipping sounds much better than preamp tube clipping; a small amp with its power section pushed hard sounds better.

I'm sorry, I should've been more clear. When I asked if it would get the negative affect of the master volume out of the way by turning it all the way up (then attenuating more) what I meant was I'd have to use the external attenuator more to reduce the volume to a tolerable level--not that the master volume would do any attenuating.

But your answer still makes good sense. Thanks!

 

[ggunn]

I'm sorry, I should've been more clear. When I asked if it would get the negative affect of the master volume out of the way by turning it all the way up (then attenuating more) what I meant was I'd have to use the external attenuator more to reduce the volume to a tolerable level--not that the master volume would do any attenuating.

But your answer still makes good sense. Thanks!

Ah, OK. Realize, though, that an attenuator is a resistive (static) load on your amp, whereas a speaker is a reactive load, which is changing all the time. That will affect your tone somewhat. Also note that a small amp in maximum overdrive won't produce the low frequencies that a big one will, so there's that. There's no free lunch. That's why many folks just bite the bullet and record their big Marshalls wide open.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Ah, OK. Realize, though, that an attenuator is a resistive (static) load on your amp, whereas a speaker is a reactive load, which is changing all the time. That will affect your tone somewhat. Also note that a small amp in maximum overdrive won't produce the low frequencies that a big one will, so there's that. There's no free lunch. That's why many folks just bite the bullet and record their big Marshalls wide open.

Good points. I've got a weber attenuator, and while I don't completely understand the technology, it uses a speaker motor to present a reactive load to the amp. Then on top of that it has dual attenuator controls--high & low, so I can compensate (basically a tone stack) if I think the sound is being altered. To tell you the truth, I haven't found (heard) the need to--I dial the top and bottom down the same.

 

[amra]

I play pretty high gain stuff, so for me, an overdrive is the only way to push my single channel tube amp to mega-gain levels. Actually, in truth, it is only hi-gain, probably not mega-gain. I set my amps preamp around 7, then use an OD pedal with the level on 7 or 8 to push the gain. I don't want it to make a drastic difference in the sound, at least for my peference. Just push the gain.

The best I have found for this purpose is a Digitech Bad Monkey. All it does is push. If you DO have to crank up the drive on it, for whatever reason, it gives a tube amp a nice crisp, kind of rectified sound. Before that, I used an SD-1 (nice and tight, but too trebly for my tastes) and a Tubescreamer TS9DX (too dark and muddy for my tastes)

 

[Light]

Turning the master volume up attenuates less, not more. All the way up is zero attenuation.

True, but there are a lot of different places you can put that pot. As I said, I'm not enough of an electronics guy to go into this stuff, but none the less. Hell, some guys even put them after the phase inverter using a stacked pot.

My guess is that the real reason I don't like master volume amps is that they are all designed to get their distortion from the preamp tubes, and I dislike preamp distortion (as you say, too hard and nasty). I like my power tubes to give me the crunch. It could be that I just don't like the way they design master volume amps. The simpler the circuit, the happier I tend to be with the sound. Hell, all those old Fender amps came right out of the RCA tube handbook.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[soundchaser59]

Oddly, I started with a Voodoo Lab Sparkle Drive. I sold it and commenced a pedal quest. Mostly Tube Screamers, Whizzer mods, Keeley mod, Blues Driver, EHX OD pedals, etc.etc.... and what do you suppose happened?

I ended up buying a new Sparkle Drive, and it is my favorite of all the ones I tested. The biggest disappointments? EHX English Muffin and that worthless Bad Monkey. It's the only pedal I returned the same day I bought it.

If you have money to burn, then the Damage Control pedals are worth a look.

 

[ggunn]

True, but there are a lot of different places you can put that pot. As I said, I'm not enough of an electronics guy to go into this stuff, but none the less. Hell, some guys even put them after the phase inverter using a stacked pot.

My guess is that the real reason I don't like master volume amps is that they are all designed to get their distortion from the preamp tubes, and I dislike preamp distortion (as you say, too hard and nasty). I like my power tubes to give me the crunch. It could be that I just don't like the way they design master volume amps. The simpler the circuit, the happier I tend to be with the sound. Hell, all those old Fender amps came right out of the RCA tube handbook.

I'm hip. My gigger is a '65 (not a reissue) Deluxe Reverb.