When to place vocal levels for pro sound (or does it matter?)

Dags

Dags

New member
Hi everyone
I have a technical mix-approach question. (Apologies if this has been covered - I couldn't find it doing a quick forum search)

From your experience with setting the overall level for lead vocals (ignoring small fader-bumps for words or small lines of the song) do you have the overall volume set at one general level throughout the song and adjust instruments around them or do you 'step' the vocal up in the instrument-busy chorus and drop it back again for the sparser verses?

I have been stepping the vocal as required to have it sit at the same apparent level above the instruments for each section but I am wondering if the more professional way to approach the mix is to get the vocal into the song early (say, after drums & bass have been balanced) and set the level of the rest of the instruments so that there's no real overall 'general' volume change to the vocals throughout the song.

Listening more carefully to commercially released songs I have been trying to determine where the vocal's apparent loudness is ignoring the instrumentation and it doesn't seem to change at all (or maybe it is just that the whole song is compressed based on the vocal level)
I'm wondering if doing general volume steps to the lead vocal is a bit of a mistake I have been making!
...or does it really make a difference how the vocal levels are treated when the song is going to be compressed a little more during mastering which will balance it all out anyway?

Dags
 
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Hmmm.... I think that the answer is "it doesn't matter as long as it works for the song". I just took a listen to Adele's "Rolling in the deep" and the lead vocal gets noticeably louder as the song progresses. This might just be a production decision to have this song ramp up during the course of playback so the vocals never drop back to their initial low level (the final vox are much louder than at the start) I haven't heard this particular technique used with any other tracks so far. All others seem to be at the same apparent level.
 
The answer is 'maybe'. :)

There is no way to predetermine a vocal level for any song. The song itself determines that man. Sure you already know this.

If a vocal track is not sitting well (on top in most genres) then there are likely other issues in the production causing that.

Back to basics then...
 
>.
There is no way to predetermine a vocal level for any song. The song itself determines that man. Sure you already know this.
>.

Of course! That's a no brainer. In the course of pulling a mix together you'd get the vocal sitting at a selected 'good' relative level compared to instruments. But I have been wondering should I first set the vocal to sit correctly above the noisiest, busiest part of the song (usually the chorus) then leave the vocal at this level and balance verse instruments to sit well with them so that the vocals themselves never really change their average level throughout the song (which seems to be the case for most songs I have been listening critically to). Just trying to work out a methodology that will raise the bar a little for my home mixes and curious as to what others are doing :)

(Apologies for the weird quoting, using mobile phone for accessing these forums for the first time so the layout is all a bit strange like this)
 
Give the vocal priority where it needs it man.

There is no way to have a predetermined 'relative' level of anything. The song itself (and how well anything is recorded) determines what works.
 
Interesting question.

Generally the vocalists I record know how to work a song, so they will naturally modulate their vocal dynamics in accord with the requirements of the song. That means that once I've determined the level of vocals in relation to the rest of the music, that level pretty much works for the whole song. I often work towards the end of the song, or in choruses, where there is usually more energy. Getting the vocals sorted there means that they are usually ok for the quieter bits.

However, envelopes and compression come in handy if the vocals are a bit too extreme in their dynamics, or are not working well with the changing dynamics of a song.
 
I guess that's where the extra control comes in that makes a mix more professional - the vocalist using correct vocal techniques and knowing how to create dynamic expression in their performance.

Just ran up a mix last night as an experiment where I set the vocals at a level that worked well with the loudest section then mixed the drums, bass, guitars and piano around them. (luckily it's a sparse track) The vocals held their place, with some fine automation for some words, but it was then difficult to achieve balance with the guitars and piano.

Previously I would have got the instruments blending well then stepped the lead vocals up into the chorus at the same relative level then dropped them back again for the quieter verses.

This is going to be an interesting challenge to try mixing this way :)
 
When mixing, my most common approach is to get the drums to sit where I want them, add in the bass so that bass and kick play nicely together, then I bring in the vocals. I reckon the song shoild sound pretty good with just these three elements in the mix.

After that I start bringing up the other instruments, making sure that their introduction doesn't swamp what you've already established.
 
I've never in my life automated vocals louder/quieter. Not on my own tracks, not on anyone else's either. They are what they are. I don't do sissy pop garbage though. I rock. If they sometimes get buried or seem to loud, fuck it. It's never been a problem for me. I wonder what you're doing that it's a problem for you.
 
gecko zzed said:
When mixing, my most common approach is to get the drums to sit where I want them, add in the bass so that bass and kick play nicely together, then I bring in the vocals. I reckon the song shoild sound pretty good with just these three elements in the mix.

After that I start bringing up the other instruments, making sure that their introduction doesn't swamp what you've already established.
Click to expand...

Hallaluuya !!! I second that completely in my humble home recording experience......obvious that it depends on the type of music you are trying to produce.....take the Rolling Stones and their "garage sound" period for awhile
there...late seventies early eighties..Jaggers voice was virtually buried in the mix and hardly distinguishable..
Take Tracy Nelson...Blues mama supreme..all she needs is her voice a bass and some drums...clear and simply and nicely balanced. As mentioned... the good singers have microphone and dynamic savvy...usually never getting too loud near the mic ( backing away slightly ) on the powerful notes...
And as Don Was says....music is organic, the song and its needs will dictate the balance usually...but you are the artist....yours to decide what sounds good to you
 
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