When recording in 24 bit what do you usually try to keep your peaks around?

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chadsxe

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When recording in 24 bit what do you usually try to keep your peaks around?
I have heard any were from -16 to 0. What about RMS
 
Let's say you shoot for finished potential dynamic range of 96dB, which is the max possible for a CD. If your 24-bit converter gives you let's say 116dB S/N, that gives you a 20dB cushion to lose along the way. Thus it's no big deal to start with peaks at -6dB. However, I can't fathom needing 16dB headroom. That's just lazy. On the other hand, 0dB is asking for trouble, with little to no potential benefit.

As for RMS, I take what I get and deal with it later, but you can get that level up if you want by compressing on the way in. The natural dynamic of music is for peaks to be over average by 12dB or so, so it usually works pretty well to shoot for 0VU = -15dBFS. Just be careful if you've got some crazy source.
 
I concur with mshilarious. I keep the rms at around -15 or so. Just remember, if you have a peak at -30, you still have more resolution than a 0db peak in 16 bit.
 
I'm confused waht you guys are talking about :confused: when I pop any mainstream CD in and load it up in cool edit , it's hitting the red- 0DB .You guys are sayin -15 DB :confused: that sounds too low.
 
GamezBond said:
I'm confused waht you guys are talking about :confused: when I pop any mainstream CD in and load it up in cool edit , it's hitting the red- 0DB .You guys are sayin -15 DB :confused: that sounds too low.
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That volume happens in mastering. We are talking about tracking individual instruments. Anyway, a CD is only 16 bit, we are talking about 24 bit.
 
Why would you be looking at RMS on tracking? Unless you're using it for some reason to gauge tracking compression or something, RMS Vs peak would depend on what you're recording; Sustained instrument- higher RMS, a drum, low RMS, yes? :rolleyes:
 
Line level (0dbvu) is -15dbfs (sometimes -12, depending on the equipment) so if you keep your RMS level about there, you make sure that the analog circuitry in your signal chain doesn't run out of headroom. This includes your preamp, the input of your converters, compressors, etc. This also includes the signal chain for mixing (if you mix out of the box)
This whole thing was more straight forward in the days of analog tape. You were shooting to have the RMS level at 0dbvu. The manufacturers would make sure that we had the headroom that we needed and everything was fine. Now, we see how much headroom we have and try to use it all up.
 
Farview said:
Line level (0dbvu) is -15dbfs (sometimes -12, depending on the equipment) so if you keep your RMS level about there, you make sure that the analog circuitry in your signal chain doesn't run out of headroom.
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You're right, and that is a very good explanation and works well for most cases. :) I was thinking in terms of approaching it with peak meters, keeping some head room there and not otherwise worrying about 24 bit A/D level at all.
Wayne
 
so the 2 bars at the bottom of cool edit is RMS?How many DB RMS R u allowd before it starts clipping?So theres more DB of RMS alowed in 24 BIt?
 
Anything over 0dbfs is max and it does not mater. If it happens for a short time (a peak) or stays a while (average, a sustained note, RMS) it's clipped.
Understand that you can turn the whole thing around a bit if it helps; Many 'typical' signals in their natural state fall into a general range of the RMS being 10-20db below their peaks. It's not a mater, at least in this context, of how high or low RMS should be, but more a system set up to provide a reasonable dynamic range to record and measure it.
The dynamic range at 24 bits is so very wide that the record (conversion) level is one of our least concerns. ;)
Wayne
 
A signal of very low RMS power can clip. On the other hand, a signal with very high RMS power can go without clipping. It depends on the signal, the instrumentation, the dynamics inherent to the mix.

For the record, when I'm tracking and/or mixing, no level at any time exceeds -6dBfs. Not on individual tracks, not on finished mixes. The only time that threshold is crossed is during the mastering phase. And yes, someone else will probably be doing it if they're my mixes. Not that I mix much anymore... :o

IMHO, people waste far too much energy and concentration on hoarding bits - mostly at the wrong time, where it isn't really going to do them much good.

If they'd take that concentration and apply it to the core sounds, most mixes will tend to sound better. And because of that, the mixes may have a higher *potential* for higher volume in the mastering phase.

If you get a "decent" level (especially in 24-bit), one that you *know* won't clip, you can stop staring at the meters and start working on the sound. That's what counts in the end.

Whoops - Didn't mean to go on a rant... :o
 
Massive Master said:
A signal of very low RMS power can clip. On the other hand, a signal with very high RMS power can go without clipping. It depends on the signal, the instrumentation, the dynamics inherent to the mix.

For the record, when I'm tracking and/or mixing, no level at any time exceeds -6dBfs. Not on individual tracks, not on finished mixes. The only time that threshold is crossed is during the mastering phase. And yes, someone else will probably be doing it if they're my mixes. Not that I mix much anymore... :o

IMHO, people waste far too much energy and concentration on hoarding bits - mostly at the wrong time, where it isn't really going to do them much good.

If they'd take that concentration and apply it to the core sounds, most mixes will tend to sound better. And because of that, the mixes may have a higher *potential* for higher volume in the mastering phase.

If you get a "decent" level (especially in 24-bit), one that you *know* won't clip, you can stop staring at the meters and start working on the sound. That's what counts in the end.

Whoops - Didn't mean to go on a rant... :o
Click to expand...

I agree, in the analouge days it was more important to get a "hot" signal on tape, now, as long as your not really low, do you need to worry about it
 
GamezBond said:
so the 2 bars at the bottom of cool edit is RMS?How many DB RMS R u allowd before it starts clipping?So theres more DB of RMS alowed in 24 BIt?
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The best way I can explain it is to use the cassette deck analogy. When you set the levels on a cassette, you tried to keep the VU meter so that the needle (or lights) would always be hovering around 0dbvu. Peaks would be over that, quiet stuff would be under that. Most people didn't know how much headroom there was, and it didn't matter because the goal was to make the meter float around that target.
Now that we are using peak meters, we know exactly how much headroom we have and for some reason the goal (for some people) seems to be to get as close to the top as possible. (as if they were playing horse-shoes)
0dbVU in the analog side of things is about -15dbFS in the digital side. So, if you keep the meter bouncing AROUND the -15dbFS point, you will be fine and all of your gain staging will be in order.
I wouldn't trust the rms meters in your software for this sort of thing. We have been using RMS in place of average in this whole thread. In conversation they can be used interchangably, but mathmaticaly, they are quite different.
 
Massive Master said:
...If they'd take that concentration and apply it to the core sounds, most mixes will tend to sound better. And because of that, the mixes may have a higher *potential* for higher volume in the mastering phase.

If you get a "decent" level (especially in 24-bit), one that you *know* won't clip, you can stop staring at the meters and start working on the sound. That's what counts in the end.

Whoops - Didn't mean to go on a rant... :o
Click to expand...

Rant? What rant? I don't see no rants in here. ;)
Wayne
 
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