When do you tell a band they suck?

[acidrock]

You know, this is fine in theory, but there is a big problem. Your name is on that disc, and if the band sucks, people will see your name attached to it.

I build guitars, and I will not sell a guitar which is not perfect. Why? Because I and everyone else who works in my shop (it is a family business) is represented by that instrument. Our major form of advertising is word of mouth, and I do not want people talking about an inferior product out there representing my business.


Light

So if I buy one of your guitars and I play it horribly does that reflect on you?

 

[Lt. Bob]

You know, this is fine in theory, but there is a big problem. Your name is on that disc, and if the band sucks, people will see your name attached to it.

Certainly a valid point however: First, your job is to make the mix sound good....you don't play the instruments. As long as you do a good recording....you've done your job. Secondly, the question was "When do you tell a band they suck?" And I say that even if you decide you don't want to do the job; it's not neccessary to tell someone you think they suck. Plus; maybe you're wrong. There are all sorts of big successful stars that I think suck. Kenny G. for one. But obviously not everyone feels that way.

 

[Light]

Certainly a valid point however: First, your job is to make the mix sound good....you don't play the instruments.

Few people can actually separate the end product (which will never sound good if the band does not sound good, barring an amount of editing I have no interest in) from the people who were involved with it.

No, of course I am not responsible if you can't play my guitar well, but the music is not what I am involved in, I am only responsible for the guitar.

When you are recording, you are making an end product. When I make a guitar I am making a tool. The analogy I like to use is, when I make an album, it is like making a painting. When I make a guitar, I am making a brush.

Also, the average buyer of a custom guitar is FAR more educated than an average album buyer.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[jake-owa]

Ha ha ha...Hogan's hero. Welcome to the Hawaiian music scene. I've recorded a couple punk bands on Oahu and ran into the same problem....they suck.

They would buy me a 20 sack for a weekend of recording (20+ hours) only to end up bitching at me all "how come the vocal sounds so....weird?....why is the bass so clunky sounding/, can't you just edit that drum part?" I went blue in the face trying to explain mic bleed, timing and basic sound issues to them. I don't record friend's bands anymore.

Here's the worst line ever..."I just want it to sound like I hear it in my head".

The only tight bands in Hawaii are cover bands I would never be able to stomach recording/mixing for.

*sigh*

 

[Son of Mixerman]

I agree with littledog. Most of the bands Ive recorded think their alot better than they are. Mainly because they don't hear themselves. The other night I was watching American Idol, and Paula A finally asked the question: Don't you people hear yourselves, can't you tell your not in tune? My sister is as tone deaf as they come, hearing her sing is scary, but she doesn't know any better, and never will. Its best IMO to wait until they ask. Any self respecting musician with a 1/2 ounce of talent will hear the problems, and they almost always ask if it sounded ok or just comeout and ask "do I really suck that bad?" I had an Engineer tell me once that I lacked dynamics and emotion. It hurt, but listened and heard what he meant. I asked how I could change and he showed me a few licks and I went back to practicing. Im still practicing

By the way, the worst session I had was a vocalist who brought in his vocal tracks and wanted me to fill-in the music around it. The timing was bad, the lyrics were horrible and his voice was worse than anything Ive ever heard. I did it as a favor for a friend. I struggled with the timing issues for a week alone in my spare time with the drums. Whammy bars make it easy to follow pitch changes.. All in all when I got done he was happy as they come. It was a highly polished turd. But thats what made him happy.
If Mixerman can bite his tongue.

SoMm

 

[sonusman]

The best sessions I have had with artists who aren't "all that" were the ones that I bite my tonge about my opinion on their talent. I have seen too many times where the people that they sell their CD's to have a different opinion!! LOL Really. In addition, it forced me to think of better ways to communicate with the client on how to get a better take. I use some really clever one's!:

If the singer is maybe too dynamic, I might bump the preamp up a little too loud and let them rip away! Then I show them that the preamp distorts rather easily, and that maybe if they could control their dynamics a bit, all will be well. When they start to settle in, I back off the preamp a bit.

If the drummer is maybe not so in the pocket, I might setup a mix scene on the digital console where everybody but the drummer is track delayed and quickly switch between the real scene and that for playback to them. When the drummer hears he is rushing a LOT (artificially of course..)they usually fall back JUST enough to get closer to the pocket.

For out of tune singer, try having them turn down the headphone mix, of only using one pad of the headphones. These two things alone can get a flat singer closer to proper pitch in a hurry!

While none of these things work all the time, they do sometimes. I figure that they are much easier to do, and are a lot better than saying "hey, that sucked!". Telling them they suck seldom keeps them from continuing on with the session, but it sure manages to make them not trust you anymore.

I have found that when I keep my mouth shut that they come back later and start asking the questions of what I think was wrong. When the artist isn't in the hear of battle, they tend to be a bit more receptive to critisism and suggestions on how to improve. Seldomly will an artist that sucks be able to change too much in the studio from being told they are not ready to record. Often, a LOT of encouragement helps though!!! Better musicians can usually take an occasional "you sucked on that one" comment in stride and do better the next take. Poor musicians though NEED to be lied to for the most part if you want to get anywhere in the session. As an engineer you have to assess the situation very fast and stick to your guns. If the client sucks and potentially sensitive about it, give encouragement and hold back your negative comments. Like I said earlier, critisism will usually not deter them from continuing the session and will just make them so self conscious that they will never improve!

If you are producing the client, then all performance issues SHOULD have been dealt with during pre-production and rehearsals! If you didn't deal with that then, you failed to do your job. I once had a client I produced that wanted to start tracking before I felt they were ready for it. They insisted. I said fine, but I will not decide what is a "take" or not, but would make decisions about the sonics. They agreed and all was well. They found out in short order that indeed they were not ready. I didn't rub it in, it didn't need to be rubbed in. They knew I was right. But, it was their money to spend.

Son of M, that is a great story.

Light, I doubt that your career is going to be defined by a crappy band! I try to remember that. I try to do just the job I am paid to do. I have heard VERY bad sounding stuff done by Larry Crane of local bands here! The problems weren't his! The bass player is this one particular band admitted that the band had a LOT of say in how the mix was done, and Larry delivered what they wanted. I doubt Larry is sweating that his reputation is at stake on this lowly little local bands 5 song demo even though the mix sucked pretty bad! Now, indeed, he can afford a few of these kinds of products to release because he has plenty in the past that sound good. If you are so in need of killer product, produce something on your own to add to your portfolio. I have seen local engineers stay VERY busy producing nothing but crap! There is a big market for crap! Don't underestimate the living you can make working on crap! But really, if you are paid to engineer, 9 times out of 10, the band will remember your positive attitude and encouragement more than any percieved lack of skills you might have displayed! In the end, good musicians will hear the rather poor playing skills of the artist, and will know the difference between bad engineering and bad band decisions! You have little to fear from giving a client what they want. If you stay busy, good musicians will wonder why and will inquire. It is then that you can explain anything pertinent about the other sessions and play them your better work in your portfolio.

Just some of my ramblings on this subject. I have learned the hard way to just do my job and keep my opinions as neutral and positive as possible concerning the "talent" or lack there of.

Ed

 

[HogansHiro]

Ed, Once again you amazme with your keen insight. Jesus you should write a book!!!!!! Anyway... I'll keep your subtle sabotage (lack of better word at the moment) ideas on mind to inject a healthy dose of reality where needed.

Jake, I wish i was recording crappy punk bands.

I was actually quite surpised to hear the broad range of answers I got on this question.

Thanx to everyone....I think I'll just poison they're drinking water...after I get paid.

 

[darrin_h2000]

When they bounce a check is a good time to be honest with a client.

 

[Foo-bu]

currently im recording a band who you could say sucks. actually their music isnt bad but their singer is horrible. they always ask me if i like it or if theres something they can improve on so its good in the sence that i can suggest ideas that will make the songs better. in terms of their singer, he always records and then says "how'd i do?" i dont flat out tell him he sucks but i think the best way to say it without actually saying it, is just tell them they hit wrong notes over a few spots and that by going over it, it'll make the recording sound better. you hafta be positive. even if they go over it a few times and still get it wrong, just say to sing from the chest more or say that maybe they're having a rough night and that they can come back anytime after they've rested their voice and it should help. more than likely, if they have tried a few times and failed, they'll go home and practice which will result in a better product....and if that fails....use the antares auto tune

 

[housepig]

I'm in the thick of this right now... as a favor for a friend, I am recording another friend of his.

But I was pretty straight up in the beginning - I said I can approach this any number of ways; I can be the engineer and record what you want the way you want it, or I can be more of a producer, and give you my input.

Be warned that if you say "we want your input" you will get it, and you may not like what you hear.

So I got it out up front, and they were cool with that, and even though I'm not crazy about how they sound or what they are doing, I have been able to give them some suggestions that IMO have improved the results.

But had I heard them first, I don't know if I'd be recording them at all....

- housepig