When did .....?

Well I don't know exactly, but it would likely have come after they were mixing/mastering on boards designed with pan controls. The first final "stereo"mix/mastering control setups that I have seen pics of had simple switches for Left, Center, Right. The center would send equal output to the left and right channels. Of course, looked at another way, prior to stereo recordings, all drums and bass were centered-along with everything else!

I will say that in my self learning that I have heard popular mixes that were still panning drums off center well into the very early seventies. I believe the bass became centered a bit earlier, or so my listening seems to show.
 
As I understand it, the reason that bass and kick were panned to the center is because when cutting records, that was the only way to make the groove easier to cut and track. Mono signals are cut horizontally. Trying to cut with bass all on one side will bring a vertical element to the signal, which runs the risk of actually having the vertical groove run too shallow which could cause mistracking, or even a momentary loss of groove with an excessively high level low frequency panned to one side.

It shouldn't be a large issue, as low bass is generally considered to be non-directional, so you get your spacial cues from the mid and high frequencies. Thats one reason that subwoofers are often located off to one side.
 
TalismanRich said:
As I understand it, the reason that bass and kick were panned to the center is because when cutting records, that was the only way to make the groove easier to cut and track. Mono signals are cut horizontally. Trying to cut with bass all on one side will bring a vertical element to the signal, which runs the risk of actually having the vertical groove run too shallow which could cause mistracking, or even a momentary loss of groove with an excessively high level low frequency panned to one side.

It shouldn't be a large issue, as low bass is generally considered to be non-directional, so you get your spacial cues from the mid and high frequencies. Thats one reason that subwoofers are often located off to one side.
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Yes Rich the lower frequencies are omnidirectional. Thats why small PA systems only need one bin these days 👍
 
Smithers XKR said:
Yes Rich the lower frequencies are omnidirectional. Thats why small PA systems only need one bin these days 👍
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But Tyran used a lot of higher and mid frequencies in his lovely playing so that would be needed to be reflected in the mix. I dont know. The spread should have been bass in the middle, drummers to either side. Lead vocal in the middle, Tyran vocal to the right and Patrick vocal to the left. Thats it
 
TalismanRich said:
As I understand it, the reason that bass and kick were panned to the center is because when cutting records, that was the only way to make the groove easier to cut and track. Mono signals are cut horizontally. Trying to cut with bass all on one side will bring a vertical element to the signal, which runs the risk of actually having the vertical groove run too shallow which could cause mistracking, or even a momentary loss of groove with an excessively high level low frequency panned to one side.

It shouldn't be a large issue, as low bass is generally considered to be non-directional, so you get your spacial cues from the mid and high frequencies. Thats one reason that subwoofers are often located off to one side.
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While this is partly true, the problem was bypassed in earlier mono and then stereo records by use of eq and filters along with the RIAA curve and arrangements that pushed both bass guitar and bass drum higher in the spectrum along with arrangements that made use of the higher tones available. IOW rolling off below 120 k and boosting in the low mids on bass instruments as well as tuning kick drums higher and playing bass parts up the neck allowed for bass on the left , drum on the right when cutting without causing too much trouble. Considering that earlier phonographs had very unsophisticated stylus' the mix and arrangement had to have a lot less bottom compared to the high dollar MM and MC phono cartridges that came later.

Cutting machines also became more sophisticated and accurate. The grooves are "read" by the stylus in four axes-up, down, left and right. My memory of previous research is that massive dynamic range can be more of a problem than a bit of bass on one side only.
 
According to Tom Dowd, it became the norm after Atlantic Records made it their policy to place bass and kick in the center. The decision was driven because they were bouncing too many unplayable pressings when those instruments were panned off to one side or the other.
 
Smithers XKR said:
Maybe Moby Grape or the Doobie Brothers? Gary Glitter ooh err or Adam and the Ants?
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Are the bass and drums centred on the first 2 Grape albums ?
It was happening long before Gary Glitter and was rarely not happening by the time of Adam and the Ants.
Gtoboy said:
Of course, looked at another way, prior to stereo recordings, all drums and bass were centered-along with everything else!
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When I was thinking about the original OP, that suddenly occurred to me ! 😄 So I had to re-word it to reflect the stereo era.
Gtoboy said:
I will say that in my self learning that I have heard popular mixes that were still panning drums off center well into the very early seventies
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Definitely. It seems to have taken a long while before it became the norm. Old habits died hard ?
Gtoboy said:
I believe the bass became centered a bit earlier, or so my listening seems to show
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I wonder when that also became the norm. I remember the manual of the Fostex X-15 cassette portastudio, when talking about mixing, said something like "except for the accepted practice of putting vocals and bass in the centre......mixing is more art than science." So by the time of the first portastudios {the X-15 came out in 1983}, bass in the centre was the norm, but apparently not drums, in the minds of some.
RRuskin said:
According to Tom Dowd, it became the norm after Atlantic Records made it their policy to place bass and kick in the center
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Do you know when that was ? It would be interesting to know which record first featured it and which record became the straw that broke the camel's back and caused Atlantic to make it their policy. It would also be interesting to know what producers and engineers thought that preferred the then-standard way. It would also be interesting to hear from those involved, what it was that, when the bass and drums were first centred, made them say "Aha !" and if previous to then, they'd disliked panning the drums and bass off to the sides.
RRuskin said:
The decision was driven because they were bouncing too many unplayable pressings when those instruments were panned off to one side or the other.
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I wonder about that raison-d'être. That gives the impression that for a couple of decades, every record company had to potentially consign tons of records to the scrap heap because of the way records were mixed. Interestingly, one rarely hears stories from consumers of records not being able to be played because the needle was jumping all over the place. Because of scratches and fluff, yes. But bass and drum/kick content ?
But it's also interesting that by fairly common consensus {even if some came kicking and screaming} music played on hi-fi, through headphones or earphones or in the car or whatever, just sounds better with the bass and drums central. It would be one heck of a coincidence if the way that sounded better and gave the records the most oomph and balance also turned out to be the solution to the technical problems that were supposedly besetting the industry.
 
Gtoboy said:
The first final "stereo"mix/mastering control setups that I have seen pics of had simple switches for Left, Center, Right. The center would send equal output to the left and right channels
Click to expand...
While I've wondered about it for a long time, what really inspired the question and whether or not the consideration behind the shift was technical or artistic, is that I've been listening for the last 10 or so days to Nazz. There's a good CD which features all the songs from their 3 albums and because Todd Rundgren was in the band and gradually took over much of the recording/production side as well as being the main songwriter and because he went on to become such a big player in the studio in the 70s, following his trajectory has been kind of interesting. And I noticed that on their debut album which was recorded in April '68, a guy called Bill Traut was the producer but Rundgren didn't think much of him or his work or his mixes and they took 2 songs {"Open my eyes" and "Hello, it's me" ~that just happened to be later released as singles} and did some overdubs and Rundgren remixed them.
Unlike pretty much the rest of the album, these two songs have the bass and drums in the centre. They're not my favourites on the album, but they are very strong and I was fascinated that Rundgren, who was becoming interested in mixing, should go in that direction while the supposedly experienced Traut did not. By the 2nd album, most of the bass and drums are centred and by the time the third was mixed, by which time Rundgren had left the band, much of the bass and drums are centred although some isn't.
Beatle stuff was still containing hard-panned bass and drums at this point but change was in the wind that they were surprisingly slow to catch onto, considering how quickly they usually latched onto trends.
 
grimtraveller said:
Are the bass and drums centred on the first 2 Grape albums ?
It was happening long before Gary Glitter and was rarely not happening by the time of Adam and the Ants.

When I was thinking about the original OP, that suddenly occurred to me ! 😄 So I had to re-word it to reflect the stereo era.

Definitely. It seems to have taken a long while before it became the norm. Old habits died hard ?

I wonder when that also became the norm. I remember the manual of the Fostex X-15 cassette portastudio, when talking about mixing, said something like "except for the accepted practice of putting vocals and bass in the centre......mixing is more art than science." So by the time of the first portastudios {the X-15 came out in 1983}, bass in the centre was the norm, but apparently not drums, in the minds of some.

Do you know when that was ? It would be interesting to know which record first featured it and which record became the straw that broke the camel's back and caused Atlantic to make it their policy. It would also be interesting to know what producers and engineers thought that preferred the then-standard way. It would also be interesting to hear from those involved, what it was that, when the bass and drums were first centred, made them say "Aha !" and if previous to then, they'd disliked panning the drums and bass off to the sides.

I wonder about that raison-d'être. That gives the impression that for a couple of decades, every record company had to potentially consign tons of records to the scrap heap because of the way records were mixed. Interestingly, one rarely hears stories from consumers of records not being able to be played because the needle was jumping all over the place. Because of scratches and fluff, yes. But bass and drum/kick content ?
But it's also interesting that by fairly common consensus {even if some came kicking and screaming} music played on hi-fi, through headphones or earphones or in the car or whatever, just sounds better with the bass and drums central. It would be one heck of a coincidence if the way that sounded better and gave the records the most oomph and balance also turned out to be the solution to the technical problems that were supposedly besetting the industry.
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Good comment Grim, agreed about the Glitter band and Adam and the Ants, it was more of just a big sound. But... the Doobies and Moby where a much more subtle mix of the two kits. Ted Templeman panned both kits very well and worked a lot of the individual drums not completely to either side.
 
Moby Grape, Gary Glitter and the Doobies did nothing unique. If you look up almost any source on mastering for vinyl, it will probably say to put everything below about 100-150Hz in the center.

If you go back to the early Beach Boys records, the bass is centered on the stereo versions. Snare drum of on the side and vocals are split to the side for backgrounds, centered for the main vocal. That would be around 1963. My copy of Surrealistic Pillow has the bass clearly centered. That's the same era as the first Moby Grape album. Unfortunately my early Beatles albums are mono, so nothing to see there. My copy of Revolver has the left/right/center stereo mix and with bass mostly on the side. THAT was unique to me.

I have one of my Dad's Dean Martin albums, and there's very little bass, mostly a string bass vs the orchestra. What is there is pretty much centered. Likewise for a Letterman album (labeled "Duophonic"). This is stuff from '61-62 and has the bass centered. All of the really old albums are only "Hi Fidelity" aka mono.

Based on that, I would say that bass was probably centered shortly after stereo albums became popular, which would be some time around 1960. Remember, the first stereo album (in the current groove format) wasn't released until 1957 and didn't become commercially available for a couple of years.
 
BTW, stereo WAS available much earlier, although it was only on tape. I've got several of my dad's old tapes and they were stereo, so stereo mixing boards were available in the bigger studios. Two of his stereo tapes are copyrighted 1954.
 
TalismanRich said:
BTW, stereo WAS available much earlier, although it was only on tape. I've got several of my dad's old tapes and they were stereo, so stereo mixing boards were available in the bigger studios. Two of his stereo tapes are copyrighted 1954.
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Atlantic was the 1st pop & jazz label to issue stereo lp's because Tom Dowd insisted on recording everything in both mono & stereo well before CBS Labs developed the industry standard stereo disc. While other labels were marketing faux-stereo product from their back catalogs, Atlantic just got the true stereo tapes from the vault and mastered for stereo.
 
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