Light
New member
Re: Re: When great companies go bad!!!!!!
Taylor never tries to hide the fact that they use a lot of machines, and neither does Martin. None the less, on the higher end Martins, they are as close to "hand made" as any factory out there. They are no longer carving necks by hand (as they where when I first visited the factory about twelve years ago), but so what. CNC (Computer Numeric Controlled milling machine) made necks are more consistent, faster, cheaper, and just as good, if not better, than a hand carved neck. It just doesn't make any sense for someone doing a factory instrument NOT to use a CNC for a lot of things. Necks, bridges, braces, inlays, fingerboards (particularly fingerboards), and jigs can all be made to much tighter tolerances with CNC machines than they can with any other method. There is not a factory in the world any more that does not use CNC machines, so your idea that there are other "hand built" builders who are cheaper is just ignorant.
Taylor just a few years ago came out with a whole new neck joint for their guitars. I don't want to go into the technical details, but the precision of this neck joint needs to be so high that they have to be careful with how much finish they put on the necks. They could not have used this neck joint if they were not using CNC machines, period. I have heard Bob talk about how much trouble they used to have with some of there stuff, because the various employees would be cutting on different sides of a .05" pencil line. The new neck joints tolerance is 0.00001" of an inch.
"But Light, how does that new neck joint improve the guitar?" you say. Well, it is a given fact among luthiers that EVERY steel string acoustic guitar will, eventually, need a neck reset. With a dovetail joint, this is almost a $500 job, and it takes us about two months. We need to get in there and loosen the glue holding on the neck, and the best way to do it is with steam. Unfortunately, this is time consuming, and we then need to wait for the wood to dry out again. Additionally there is ALWAYS finish touch up which needs to be done. Even with the old Taylor bolt on neck joint, it takes quite a while, and is a $300 job. With the new Taylor neck joint, a neck reset can be done in less than an hour, and there is no need for steam. That is to say, about $65, and the only reason it takes a week is because we have a whole bunch of other guitars in here before you. There is some debate as to whether or not bolt on necks don't sound as good as dovetails, but I don't really have an opinion on that one. We use dovetails because we have always used dovetails, and some of our customers believe that it makes a difference.
"So Light, do you use CNC machines?" you ask. Well, no, not really. First of all, we have no room for one. Second of all, a good CNC machine costs about $100,000. We can't afford that. And lastly, we really don't have any desire to build that many guitars. We enjoy carving necks by hand (as long as they are not maple). It is quite relaxing, and very fun. Now sure, we are in this business to make money, but we are also in it because we love guitars, and we love wood working. CNC machines are not nearly as fun, at least for us (however, our friend Jim Olson can't stop talking about his CNC machine, and he loves it). All that being said, we get our repetitive inlay work (our head stock logo's) cut on a CNC machine by Precision Pearl down in Texas.
Even though we don't use CNC machines, we are still using a LOT of machines. Ours is a full on professional woodworking shop, with a table saw, a jointer, a planer, a bandsaw, two drill presses, at last count we had four belt/disc sanders, a thicknessing drum sander, a oscillating spindle sander, two lathes, a radial arm saw, and two shapers. We also have at least fifteen routers, three grinders, two buffers (one for guitars, and one for nuts and tool sharpening) three cordless drills, four or five corded drills. We have a large air compressor, and we use a whole bunch of pneumatic sanders. We have a down draft sanding table, two dust collectors (one for the sanders, and one for the planer), and a legal and safe spray booth (complete with a bronze fan with it's motor out of the air path, so we don't blow our shop up). We absolutely make "hand built" guitars. Machines can do some jobs better and faster. We would be fools not to use them, and we only do about fifty guitars a year. For a factory that needs to build tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of guitars a year not to use machines and CNC would be even more stupid. Martin tried that in the seventies, and all of those guitars have the bridge in the wrong place (don't believe me, call Martin and ask them what a "saddle-back" bridge is for).
The only guys who build guitars completely by hand are guys like Ervin Somogyi. Buy you know what, he can only build about 12 guitars a year. In order to make a living doing that, he has to charge $25,000 a guitar, which definitely does not qualify as "cheaper". On top of that he is a complete fucking potzer (sorry, I watched "Chasing Amy" last night). Those are the kind of guys who think of guitar building as an Art. They are the guys who loose sight of the fact that a guitar must first and foremost be functional. Guitars are not Art, they are tools. And luthiers are not artists, but craftsman. A craftsman uses whatever tool will do the job best.
Sorry to go off on a rant like this, but this is a real hot button issue to me. I get really pissed off about people who try to say that you can not make a good guitar with machines. Taylor is now making, and has always made, great quality guitars. I don't like their sound (personally) but others do, and I can say nothing bad about their build quality. Martin is probably making the most consistently high quality guitars of their history right now, and that is a 171 year history. If you don't like the Martin sound, fine, but their quality is top of the line. Martin guitars are now, and have always been, the gold standard for guitars. That is what everyone else is, and should be, measured against. They also have the best warranty of any company in any industry. My problem with the X series guitars is that they are bad guitars coming out of a great company. They sound like crap, and they can't stand up to the pressure of guitar strings. They suck. Getting upset about their allowing a POS like that out of the design stage is fine. Getting all pissy about the fact that they are changing with the times is just nonsense.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
edited for grammar
acorec said:
Taylor never tries to hide the fact that they use a lot of machines, and neither does Martin. None the less, on the higher end Martins, they are as close to "hand made" as any factory out there. They are no longer carving necks by hand (as they where when I first visited the factory about twelve years ago), but so what. CNC (Computer Numeric Controlled milling machine) made necks are more consistent, faster, cheaper, and just as good, if not better, than a hand carved neck. It just doesn't make any sense for someone doing a factory instrument NOT to use a CNC for a lot of things. Necks, bridges, braces, inlays, fingerboards (particularly fingerboards), and jigs can all be made to much tighter tolerances with CNC machines than they can with any other method. There is not a factory in the world any more that does not use CNC machines, so your idea that there are other "hand built" builders who are cheaper is just ignorant.
Taylor just a few years ago came out with a whole new neck joint for their guitars. I don't want to go into the technical details, but the precision of this neck joint needs to be so high that they have to be careful with how much finish they put on the necks. They could not have used this neck joint if they were not using CNC machines, period. I have heard Bob talk about how much trouble they used to have with some of there stuff, because the various employees would be cutting on different sides of a .05" pencil line. The new neck joints tolerance is 0.00001" of an inch.
"But Light, how does that new neck joint improve the guitar?" you say. Well, it is a given fact among luthiers that EVERY steel string acoustic guitar will, eventually, need a neck reset. With a dovetail joint, this is almost a $500 job, and it takes us about two months. We need to get in there and loosen the glue holding on the neck, and the best way to do it is with steam. Unfortunately, this is time consuming, and we then need to wait for the wood to dry out again. Additionally there is ALWAYS finish touch up which needs to be done. Even with the old Taylor bolt on neck joint, it takes quite a while, and is a $300 job. With the new Taylor neck joint, a neck reset can be done in less than an hour, and there is no need for steam. That is to say, about $65, and the only reason it takes a week is because we have a whole bunch of other guitars in here before you. There is some debate as to whether or not bolt on necks don't sound as good as dovetails, but I don't really have an opinion on that one. We use dovetails because we have always used dovetails, and some of our customers believe that it makes a difference.
"So Light, do you use CNC machines?" you ask. Well, no, not really. First of all, we have no room for one. Second of all, a good CNC machine costs about $100,000. We can't afford that. And lastly, we really don't have any desire to build that many guitars. We enjoy carving necks by hand (as long as they are not maple). It is quite relaxing, and very fun. Now sure, we are in this business to make money, but we are also in it because we love guitars, and we love wood working. CNC machines are not nearly as fun, at least for us (however, our friend Jim Olson can't stop talking about his CNC machine, and he loves it). All that being said, we get our repetitive inlay work (our head stock logo's) cut on a CNC machine by Precision Pearl down in Texas.
Even though we don't use CNC machines, we are still using a LOT of machines. Ours is a full on professional woodworking shop, with a table saw, a jointer, a planer, a bandsaw, two drill presses, at last count we had four belt/disc sanders, a thicknessing drum sander, a oscillating spindle sander, two lathes, a radial arm saw, and two shapers. We also have at least fifteen routers, three grinders, two buffers (one for guitars, and one for nuts and tool sharpening) three cordless drills, four or five corded drills. We have a large air compressor, and we use a whole bunch of pneumatic sanders. We have a down draft sanding table, two dust collectors (one for the sanders, and one for the planer), and a legal and safe spray booth (complete with a bronze fan with it's motor out of the air path, so we don't blow our shop up). We absolutely make "hand built" guitars. Machines can do some jobs better and faster. We would be fools not to use them, and we only do about fifty guitars a year. For a factory that needs to build tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of guitars a year not to use machines and CNC would be even more stupid. Martin tried that in the seventies, and all of those guitars have the bridge in the wrong place (don't believe me, call Martin and ask them what a "saddle-back" bridge is for).
The only guys who build guitars completely by hand are guys like Ervin Somogyi. Buy you know what, he can only build about 12 guitars a year. In order to make a living doing that, he has to charge $25,000 a guitar, which definitely does not qualify as "cheaper". On top of that he is a complete fucking potzer (sorry, I watched "Chasing Amy" last night). Those are the kind of guys who think of guitar building as an Art. They are the guys who loose sight of the fact that a guitar must first and foremost be functional. Guitars are not Art, they are tools. And luthiers are not artists, but craftsman. A craftsman uses whatever tool will do the job best.
Sorry to go off on a rant like this, but this is a real hot button issue to me. I get really pissed off about people who try to say that you can not make a good guitar with machines. Taylor is now making, and has always made, great quality guitars. I don't like their sound (personally) but others do, and I can say nothing bad about their build quality. Martin is probably making the most consistently high quality guitars of their history right now, and that is a 171 year history. If you don't like the Martin sound, fine, but their quality is top of the line. Martin guitars are now, and have always been, the gold standard for guitars. That is what everyone else is, and should be, measured against. They also have the best warranty of any company in any industry. My problem with the X series guitars is that they are bad guitars coming out of a great company. They sound like crap, and they can't stand up to the pressure of guitar strings. They suck. Getting upset about their allowing a POS like that out of the design stage is fine. Getting all pissy about the fact that they are changing with the times is just nonsense.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
edited for grammar
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