What's wrong with my drums?

[rockear]

Can I get some constructive criticism on my drum sounds? This is a low budget recording and the quality is going to reflect that somewhat, but I'd like to do the best I can with what's available.

Here's the track, 128k mono mp3:

The setup was:

Blue Bluebird LDC about 3 feet above the snare, centered, on axis, into a small Yamaha mixer.

Behringer ECM8000 about 18 inches from the bass drum front head (no hole), 45 degrees off axis, into a Grace M101

No effects or EQ applied at this point. No other instruments have been recorded yet.

My main concern is the snare is clipping. Can you guys hear it? I can, but only when I slow it way down and then only barely. I think the Bluebird may be too hot of a mic for that Yamaha preamp. I'm wondering if I should have switched the pre's around.

I'm also wondering if the cymbals sound okay. I'm hoping the mics were far enough apart to prevent phase issues, but I'm not really sure if I hear any or not.

I've never recorded a drum kit before, so I'm hoping some more experienced ears can help me out.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Greg_L]

That's not bad at all for a first try. I didn't really notice any clipping.

This is obviously gonna be some fast punk style hard rocking stuff, so I'm pretty sure your kick aint gonna cut through. It's pretty soft as-is, and it's really gonna vanish under a barrage of bass and guitars. I suggest you cut a hole in the front head and get that mic in there. Or hell, mic it from the beater side. You're gonna need kick attack.

How many overheads did you use? Pan em out to get some spread on the cymbals. This will also reveal phase problems if you have any.

 

[PieBot]

wait so did you only use two mics? You mentioned a snare and bass mic, but then said overheads... I'm confused. I think maybe the LDC is too sensitive that close to your snare. maybe try a dynamic mic instead could help the level.

 

[Greg_L]

wait so did you only use two mics? You mentioned a snare and bass mic, but then said overheads... I'm confused. I think maybe the LDC is too sensitive that close to your snare. maybe try a dynamic mic instead could help the level.

3 feet is too close to the snare? LDC's are used for overheads all the time. They're usually approx 3 feet away.

 

[rockear]

Yeah only those two mics were used. I only have two inputs on my audio interface, so I kind of had to try and get the best balance I could there.

Greg L I totally hear you on the soft kick drum sound. I'm kind of hoping I can EQ my way around that by sticking the bass guitar firmly in the low-mids. It is punk music, but we're shooting more for Dead Milkmen or Joe Jackson than Green Day or Jonas Brothers or whatever kids listen to nowadays. The rhythm guitar will not have a lot of bass in it either.

 

[PieBot]

3 feet is too close to the snare? LDC's are used for overheads all the time. They're usually approx 3 feet away.

Well, he said the mic was clipping.Being a fairly dynamic drummer I think 3 feet above the cymbals might make less impact than 3 feet over the snare. I'm not hear to argue mic technique just putting in my two cents. I've heard the songs on your page Greg and they sound great So I have no doubts that your input is very valuable. I've personally never used LDC's really close to my drums because I play really heard. I have better luck using dynamic mics as drum mics and LDC's as overheads. just me though.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah only those two mics were used. I only have two inputs on my audio interface, so I kind of had to try and get the best balance I could there.

Greg L I totally hear you on the soft kick drum sound. I'm kind of hoping I can EQ my way around that by sticking the bass guitar firmly in the low-mids. It is punk music, but we're shooting more for Dead Milkmen or Joe Jackson than Green Day or Jonas Brothers or whatever kids listen to nowadays. The rhythm guitar will not have a lot of bass in it either.

Please don't ever say Jonas Brothers again when talking about punk.


I hear ya on the 2 inputs. That's tough. Still I think you're gonna have trouble trying to get a good kick sound with what you have. It really has no attack and I don't think you'll find any with EQ. Seriously, try a different mic placement for the kick.

 

[Greg_L]

Well, he said the mic was clipping.Being a fairly dynamic drummer I think 3 feet above the cymbals might make less impact than 3 feet over the snare. I'm not hear to argue mic technique just putting in my two cents. I've heard the songs on your page Greg and they sound great So I have no doubts that your input is very valuable. I've personally never used LDC's really close to my drums because I play really heard. I have better luck using dynamic mics as drum mics and LDC's as overheads. just me though.

No I agree with you about using dynamics for the snare. Totally. My only point is that 3 feet away isn't a close mic. An LDC should be fine up there. An SDC might be better though. If the mic was actually clipping, then he needs to turn down the preamp gain.

 

[PieBot]

No I agree with you about using dynamics for the snare. Totally. My only point is that 3 feet away isn't a close mic. An LDC should be fine up there. An SDC might be better though.

Hey I can Agree with that 100%.

I think you could get pretty good sounds with the advice given. Definitely get that kick up front and play around with the other mic as an overhead, find a good spot and roll with it. Maybe trial and error will get you results you didn't think you could get.

 

[rockear]

First let me say I really appreciate the feedback, and that is probably the first and last time I will mention the Jonas Brothers in any context!

My strategy was to kind of get two mics that covered the whole kit, with one biased towards the kick and one towards the snare, so that I could have a small bit of flexibility between the two.

The odd thing is I'm pretty sure it was the preamp in the Yamaha that was clipping, and not the mic itself. The little clip indicator LED was flashing every time he hit the snare, and I just couldn't get it to go away no matter how low I set the gain. It was either no signal or clipped. I couldn't hear any clipping at the time so I went with it, but the waves are definitely chopped.

I guess that's one instance where I should have recorded with my eyes instead of my ears a little!

I'm getting bummed about that kick sound now. We laid down seven tracks last night with this setup, and I really don't want to make the poor guy do it all over again, but that thing does sound like a pillow fight. When we were recording it I thought it sounded nice and fat, but looking more closely there is no attack to work with.

I guess maybe we should just re-record them now before we lay a bunch of guitars and crap on top of them. I guess we'll figure it out next week!

 

[Greg_L]

First let me say I really appreciate the feedback, and that is probably the first and last time I will mention the Jonas Brothers in any context!

My strategy was to kind of get two mics that covered the whole kit, with one biased towards the kick and one towards the snare, so that I could have a small bit of flexibility between the two.

The odd thing is I'm pretty sure it was the preamp in the Yamaha that was clipping, and not the mic itself. The little clip indicator LED was flashing every time he hit the snare, and I just couldn't get it to go away no matter how low I set the gain. It was either no signal or clipped. I couldn't hear any clipping at the time so I went with it, but the waves are definitely chopped.

I guess that's one instance where I should have recorded with my eyes instead of my ears a little!

I'm getting bummed about that kick sound now. We laid down seven tracks last night with this setup, and I really don't want to make the poor guy do it all over again, but that thing does sound like a pillow fight. When we were recording it I thought it sounded nice and fat, but looking more closely there is no attack to work with.

I guess maybe we should just re-record them now before we lay a bunch of guitars and crap on top of them. I guess we'll figure it out next week!

Yeah, re-track. I doubt you'll be happy with that kick once it's all said and done.

Clipping or not, I don't think that snare sounds that bad. Problem is you can't really do anything to it without potentially fucking up the cymbals.

 

[steppingonmars]

not a bad sound, but I'm hearing quite a bit of early reflections and "boxyness", this is caused by early reflections and comb filtering. Sounds like you'll want to eliminate the room sound here, you're going to have to dampen the room somewhat and work with mic placement


A LDC is going to make this worse as it's going to pick up even more of the room

Things that will help

- turn down the gain on the condenser mic
- use traps and absorption in the room to absorb some the early reflections
- get the mics as close as possible to the kit.

If you've got a bad room, focus everything on the kit and eliminate the room, then use reverb plugins to make a good room

good luck!

 

[rockear]

Yeah, re-track. I doubt you'll be happy with that kick once it's all said and done.

Clipping or not, I don't think that snare sounds that bad. Problem is you can't really do anything to it without potentially fucking up the cymbals.

I guess we'll have to. I messed around EQing it a little and I can get it slightly more present but it's still too much POOF and not enough THUMP.

We'll see about getting a hole in that bass drum head and experiment with mic placement some more.

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll bump this thread with the results of the next session.

 

[rockear]

If you've got a bad room, focus everything on the kit and eliminate the room, then use reverb plugins to make a good room

Yeah the room is definitely less than ideal. I think treating it is unlikely because $$$ and it's a rented office space that we only get for 3 hours once a week.

One of the guys has a living room with high vaulted ceilings and pretty pleasant acoustics. Maybe I'll see about recording over there next time.

I thought about using some more mics and making a drum sub-mix to 2-track, but I don't feel like I'm experienced enough to get that right on the first try (or 12).

 

[Greg_L]

I thought about using some more mics and making a drum sub-mix to 2-track, but I don't feel like I'm experienced enough to get that right on the first try (or 12).

That would work. If you go that route, be patient and do a lot of trial and error. Fuck the first try. You might not get it on the 20th either. But you gotta be patient and work with it. Are you in some kind of hurry? If you decide to try this route, record some scratch guitar and bass tracks to track the drums to so you can get an idea of how the drums will sound in a mix. It's easier to make adjustments at this stage than it is to realize the drums aren't good enough later.