What's the weakest link in our recording chain?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WarmJetGuitar
  • Start date Start date
W

WarmJetGuitar

New member
We're having a small analogue studio, mostly just recording ourselves live in the room and overdubbing after that. We're on a limited budget and want our sound to have a wide frequency range without being too polished (a bit of hiss=fine, too much hiss=pain in the ass)

Question is what should be our next purchase or modification? We got nice instruments and amps, no need to change anything there.

Recorders: Fostex Model 80, Fostex G16
Half-inch tape is the most expensive tape we can afford unless someone offers us a 2" machine including tapes for next to nothing (won't happen), so upgrading the machine seems out of the question - but modifying the electronics to something with more character could be an option. We have yet to calibrate any tapemachine, how much is to be gained from getting calibration tapes and an scope? Can we use the computer as a scope? Both machines sounds just great, but there might be a reason for all the talk about calibration.

Mics: SM57, SM58, GA Project overheads, AKG D-112 for bass drum and budget Sennheisers and Beyer Dynamics.

Desks/preamps: a Fostex 450 and Behringer Ultragain for tracking and two old PA-desks for mixdowns (a bit noisy but sounds nice).
Which desks have killer preamps for a low price? We thought about upgrading the desk at some point but we'll be best off waiting till we find a desk suited for both tracking and mixing. Is it critical to get a 32-track desk? I'd imagine listening to a recent record in between takes could be a problem if the faders is the same as those used for input levels. An old pro desk with some caracter would be what we're looking for, but which one would offer the best sounding considering we're not even close to have the funds for a Neve? MCI doen't seem to exist in Europe, unless the owners just stick to them.

Mixdowns is made to a M-Audio Fast Track Pro. While it's a good card for the price the sonics seems to suffer slightly during mixdown - there's a bit of details missing. A mixdown deck or a sound card with better A/D conversions might be an option. There's a lot of Studers here relatively cheap but then we're facing the problem of cross-fading between songs. Any advice on this?

Hope you can help us out with some advice here. Sorry about posting shitloads of questions.
 
My 2 cents;

Possibly pick up some more mics for more versatility. A LDC or two and a ribbon or two would add some extra flavours to mics you already have. There's soooooo many choices out there that any suggestions i give are just personal preference, but i'd say have a look at;

sE 2200a and Z3300a
Avantone CK7 and CV12
Rode NTK and K2
Cascade Fathead
Apex 205 (and then mod it)

If you're happy with the desks in general i'd be tempted to pick up one or two channels worth of good or great preamps for tracking. there's some cheapish neve clones (GAP Pre-73 comes to mind) or something like the Focusrite ISA range are very nice.
 
If you had started your post with the phrase "Everything we have is in perfect working order" I would echo the comments about a good one- or two-channel preamp.

However, you said your recorders have yet to be calibrated, so your first and best investment at this point should be to have an experienced tech make sure your two recorders are calibrated. There are so many things that can go out of adjustment on a tape machine that can affect so many aspects of your recordings -- frequency response, pitch, phase, volume, sync, dynamics/compression, etc. If your recorders are not consistently and accurately recording what you want them to record, then any upgrades downstream in your chain are not going to reap the benefits you want. Maybe your recorders are actually calibrated and working fine, and if so it should not cost you much for a decent tech to look them over and give you a thumbs-up with no adjustments. I would not go the do-it-yourself calibration route because on a limited budget it will cost more than a tech charges to buy all of the equipment you need to do a proper calibration (at a minimum, an expensive and preferably new calibration tape, a VTVM, a scope and frequency generator or a computer with both programs, and non-magnetic adjustment tools). Plus, a good tech should be able to do it a lot faster than you will take to learn the process and do it correctly.
 
You're missing a decent large diaphragm dynamic mic (vocals, acoutsic instruments etc), on a tight budget I would recommend an Audio Technica 4033 or something from that line, good sounding workhorse mics.

MRL test tapes are essential for keeping you tape machines aligned, definitely order these. Oscilloscope is a plus, I bought my Tektronix for something like usd$50, it is not a major expense. A decent digital multi meter is a very good idea.

You don't "need" a 32channel console, and keep in mind big old consoles need regular maintenance. That said, since you ask, I know there to be some MCI 500 series peppering Europe but probably not common on the used market. I think a console of this caliber is going a bit far given the studio you are describing. More important is the space you are in, decent quality basic tools and the knowledge to use them.
 
The weakest link in the chain is the Fast Track Pro because it's USB. Any USB interface from any company would be a weak link because of the limitation of the USB standard. Next to that your weakest link is probably using PA desks for mixdown. PA desks are generally less suited to recording if optimized for live sound only. Some desks are built to be multipurpose, but there are always compromises in that case.
 
Beck said:
The weakest link in the chain is the Fast Track Pro because it's USB. Any USB interface from any company would be a weak link because of the limitation of the USB standard. Next to that your weakest link is probably using PA desks for mixdown. PA desks are generally less suited to recording if optimized for live sound only. Some desks are built to be multipurpose, but there are always compromises in that case.
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in finding out about this USB standard that is a limitation, and what those actual limitations are. Can you shed light on this?
 
Beck said:
The weakest link in the chain is the Fast Track Pro because it's USB. Any USB interface from any company would be a weak link because of the limitation of the USB standard.
Click to expand...

Don't tell RME, Apogee, MOTU etc; they're really invested in the "lie" :D
 
is the statement about USB because is digital ?. If so then the statement should have been stated that way and the discussion is different. USB as a technology has limitations for sure, but they don't impact digital audio as even 24bit/96Khz is low bandwidth vs what USB can take.
 
fgonza2 said:
is the statement about USB because is digital ?. If so then the statement should have been stated that way and the discussion is different. USB as a technology has limitations for sure, but they don't impact digital audio as even 24bit/96Khz is low bandwidth vs what USB can take.
Click to expand...

What USB can often do is leak into the analogue side, and that's nasty. On the other hand, an internal board can often pick up RFI from the rest of the system.
 
you mean leak noise from the electrical side ? like bad power supply EMI ? clocks and signaling is way high in frequency so that wont leak anywhere.
 
Beck said:
The weakest link in the chain is the Fast Track Pro because it's USB. Any USB interface from any company would be a weak link because of the limitation of the USB standard.
Click to expand...

OP, without supporting evidence, the above statement is completely unsubstantiated. Ignore it and move on.

If you feel the need for "higher end" usb, have a look at the Sound Devices USBPre 2.

Paul
 
gecko zzed said:
What does that mean? What are the symptoms?
Click to expand...

The USB bus is effectively a data stream, i.e. an electrical waveform. The analogue signal is also an electrical waveform. If the op-amps in the analogue side are not correctly shielded, or when the blocking capacitors fail, you end up with harmonics of the data bus as part of the audio.
It typically makes a high-pitched whining sound that IIRC neatly falls into the upper end of the speech band so you can't easily filter it out without cutting into the vocals.

I'd give you a sample, but now that I actually want it to happen, the USB devices are all behaving themselves.

EDIT: Google for 'USB whine'. Your mileage will vary a lot, and maybe it's less of a problem than it was in 2005. But I got through a lot of USB devices trying to kill that whine and eventually used an optical link between the PC and an external ADC to make sure it never happened again.

[Oops, I meant ADC, not DAC]
 
Last edited:
jpmorris said:
The USB bus is effectively a data stream, i.e. an electrical waveform. The analogue signal is also an electrical waveform. If the op-amps in the analogue side are not correctly shielded, or when the blocking capacitors fail, you end up with harmonics of the data bus as part of the audio.
It typically makes a high-pitched whining sound that IIRC neatly falls into the upper end of the speech band so you can't easily filter it out without cutting into the vocals.

I'd give you a sample, but now that I actually want it to happen, the USB devices are all behaving themselves.

EDIT: Google for 'USB whine'. Your mileage will vary a lot, and maybe it's less of a problem than it was in 2005. But I got through a lot of USB devices trying to kill that whine and eventually used an optical link between the PC and an external DAC to make sure it never happened again.
Click to expand...

I'd never heard about (or experienced) this 'whine'. So I did a google on it.

This indicates a flaw in the circuit board that Mackie fixed with a new board

High Pitched whine from ProFX12 USB - Mackie Forums

This indicates ground loop problems:

Q. Why does my USB mixer make a whining sound?

This is unresolved:

http://forums.m-audio.com/showthread.php?9840-Fast-Track-USB-high-pitch-whine
 
Hmmm… well this thread has quickly become more about the socio-psychological aspects of forum interaction than it is about technology. ;)

An opinion can’t be unfounded. Only the data a person presents to lend evidence to the reasonableness of that opinion can be unfounded, which I haven’t elaborated on yet.

When I get home from work I will do that.

A couple forum guidelines… don’t discount anything, and expertise does not lie in a majority opinion, but rather an informed one. You are more likely to find expertise in the voice of one or two than in the pervasive groupthink and cultural core of Internet web forums. The vast majority of recordists in this day and age are quite helpless compared to time past and that’s simply because the recording community is no longer dominated by skilled professionals.

You ask a question and get 100 answers from people that don’t know either. Also don’t look for a definitive answer on an anonymous web forum. Forums can be a great resource, but only as cues to a direction of further research outside of forums and outside of the web altogether. We live in a time when everyone thinks they can just google it. Quite often its simply not there. :)
 
Great response Beck . . . totally true and a good thing to remember.
 
Opinions should be formed (and changed, if necessary) on the force of evidence.

Of course, majority opinions may not necessarily be right, but dissident opinion does not become fact just because it is a dissident opinion.

Ideally, everyone's opinion should be considered, but greater credence given to opinions supported by the greatest weight of evidence.

In the matter of this:

The weakest link in the chain is the Fast Track Pro because it's USB. Any USB interface from any company would be a weak link because of the limitation of the USB standard.
Click to expand...

we have an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary proofs. So far, none has been forthcoming.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like better preamps or mics seems the biggest improvement for the time being.
As for the PA-desks their sound is great, but the problem is the lack of mute/solo buttons - also more advanced EQ options on each channel would be nice. Problem is that most desks in our range is a bit "boring" sounding, probably with the expection of old Tascam.

A good tape deck running 15 ips (Revox B77 HS would probably do) for mixdowns would be amazing - but how do you cope with crossfades between songs without adding another generation? Crossfades on digital is easy as pie but I'd love to avoid those nasty AD/DA conversions as I always feel a bit disappointed sonically speaking when listening to a mixdown from the computer. There's something missing. Maybe some of it will be regained after sending the songs off for mastering to tape in a pro studio?

As for the USB-thing I've never noticed any artifacts, more than the sound kindda don't fill the room in the same way as when listening directly to the multitrack tapes - and there's a slight boost of hid-mid frequencies I find unpleasant.
 
WarmJetGuitar said:
Sounds like better preamps or mics seems the biggest improvement for the time being.
As for the PA-desks their sound is great, but the problem is the lack of mute/solo buttons - also more advanced EQ options on each channel would be nice. Problem is that most desks in our range is a bit "boring" sounding, probably with the expection of old Tascam.

A good tape deck running 15 ips (Revox B77 HS would probably do) for mixdowns would be amazing - but how do you cope with crossfades between songs without adding another generation? Crossfades on digital is easy as pie but I'd love to avoid those nasty AD/DA conversions as I always feel a bit disappointed sonically speaking when listening to a mixdown from the computer. There's something missing. Maybe some of it will be regained after sending the songs off for mastering to tape in a pro studio?

As for the USB-thing I've never noticed any artifacts, more than the sound kindda don't fill the room in the same way as when listening directly to the multitrack tapes - and there's a slight boost of hid-mid frequencies I find unpleasant.
Click to expand...

You first asked about the 'weakest link'.

There are many ways of defining the weakest link, and your next purchase should be one that addresses your most important concern.

For example, the weakest link could be defined in terms of:

* quality of sound
* durability of equipment
* effectiveness of workflow.

You've identified some of the problems. For example, lack of mute/solo buttons is a workflow issue. So is dealing with tape-based crossfades, which is also a quality issue if you are concerned about going to another generation.

Calibration of tape heads, access to tape and keeping an essentially mechanical device operating at capacity relate to durability of equipment.

All parts of the recording chain can influence the final quality of sound, mikes, pre-amps and so on. I think your interface is probably the most neutral part of the chain. However, you may not want that neutrality, preferring instead the legendary 'analog warmth'

Decide where you feel the main vulnerability is, what is going to cause you the most grief if it is wrong (or goes wrong), and work from there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top